Outlander S7E12 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #325

0:25 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I am with Michelle and we are discussing episode 12, Season 7 of Outlander. And Michelle, you said that Lord John needed a butt, whooping butt. Did you think it was going to be like this? No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't think he would. I have mixed feelings all about this episode. OK, I do too, but OK, let's and I had. Mixed more I yeah, yeah.

1:06 Because I don't know, I just kind of felt, I don't, I don't feel, I don't feel like Jamie needed to do that. I didn't. I think maybe the first hit I get just a reaction of what he said to him. And it was like, what? Pardon me? And you hit him. And then it should have been enough. You see what I'm saying? Like we can have a conversation like we owe. We not like in our 20s and 30s now we owe right? So I think the issue that I had with the way that that whole scene came down with, you know, Lower John telling Jamie I've had carnal knowledge of your wife and then not really expounding on it. Yeah, I think that the problem that I had was the way he went about it.

1:59 It's almost like, it's almost like he was not necessarily mad at Jamie for coming back, but I feel like in a sense he was kind of angry. Like we thought you were dead and this happened and now you're alive. And now I think part of him does feel guilty about it. But again, they didn't know. But I think at the same time, I think part of him might feel guilty about it because he might have enjoyed it because it wasn't true. A traditional, you know, it, it wasn't traditional as far as what we were doing. It was out of, it was born out of grief. It was born out of.

2:44 Anger, very much of what she said, so he could feel the same way, like it. It made him be able to move forward and everything. Like it's something that they can't actually describe, but it was something they needed at the time and it's and it really isn't a sexual thing. No, but I think at the same time, it was something that I think, like I said, I think Lord John may have enjoyed it because it wasn't just the regular, let's just say regular vanilla sex, regular missionary sex, regular sex between a man and a woman. Like it was something different.

3:25 And because it was something different, I think he enjoyed it because we saw from the last episode when he and Claire were having the discussion, Lord John is not really used to intimacy within a relationship, you know, And I don't know, maybe there was something about the fact that he and Claire knew what was going on. And not only that, but this is somebody who even though this is her husband that he is in love with, this is somebody that he could be completely and totally honest with, totally open with about his feelings about his frustrations and everything. And she didn't really hold it against them. And I think for John, that was kind of one of those things like, OK, yes, it was freeing.

4:14 It was I enjoyed it probably just for that fact, right. And I think I think part of him too kind of wanted to hurt Jamie, you know, again, that anger, that whole because now you've you've really like you've put all of that out there thinking that this is something that would never have to be spoken of again or whatever. And it's kind of like now it's, it's just, it's just all there. And I feel like he. Yeah, OK. And Lord John is one of those. People, he doesn't lie. He that's what I'm saying. It was like he was going to say it anyway.

4:56 He's going to need to say it. And yeah, he's he's he's angry at him because it's like you had us go through all these emotions. So it's almost like, and people can understand. It's like when a loved 1 like you haven't heard from them and it's a, a love when you hear from every day. So it could be your teenage child, your spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, and you know me hear from them and you don't hear from them. And then you hear like there's a like a, a, a crash. And then you're like, Oh my gosh, that's the direction they were heading. And then they're picking up their phone and you're like, Oh my gosh, are they OK? Like who's in that accident? I don't know who's in the accident. And then when you finally get to them and they're like, Oh yeah, man, I was in Publix looking at the magazines and they left the phone in the car.

5:45 I never made it down to that store. And you like your ass. I'm thinking you went in the accident and you up in the Publix reading the magazine for. Yeah, but also I think. I feel like that part, like you got us grieving, you got us going through this or end up sleeping with your wife and you, you just missed the ship. I mean, come on. And you just show up like it's rainbows and. Also, but also, I think part of the anger is Lord John has expressed all of these feelings. He has expressed this love, this rage, this anger, never expecting that Jamie would be there for that.

6:29 I don't know, for that information to maybe get to him. You know, you think this is something intimate you're sharing with just this one person. But now the object of that affection, that anger, that everything is standing right there in front of you. And it's just kind of like, I really bared my complete soul for nothing. Lord John keeps everything close to the vest. He's not used to revealing that much about his feelings, about his emotions. And so yeah, he's probably pissed about that too. Like you made me expose myself to the one person who now I will no longer have access to in that way because you have changed the the scope of the friendship forever.

7:11 Not just with him and Jamie, but also what friendship there was and what understanding there was between him and Claire even before they slept together. So now all of that is changed irrevocably. And he's probably pissed off about that too. Because. And then not only on, not only that, on top of everything, now his son knows the truth about who his real father is. So now you have this drama on top of this drama. And and on top of this, Jamie has not kidnapped you out the city. And there's just there's so much going on, I think. I think Lord John was just here.

7:56 And so he's taunting Jamie at at one point when Jamie is hitting him, he was like, yeah, I did this. Yeah. We weren't. What did he say? We were fucking you. We weren't fucking each other. We were fucking you. And that's the thing that kind of set Jamie off. And again, I think when you read about this part in the book, it is kind of explained in a little more detail, like the conversation he and Claire had. I think there's a little more detail in this also where Jamie that offends Jamie because of what happened to him at the hands of Blackjack Randall, you know, and also, you know that that Lord John did.

8:37 I won't even say he attempted to do anything with him, but he just kind of he made a move that was inappropriate. And from then it's kind of like Jamie knows, OK, so this is how he feels about me. He's, you know, he made the offer to Lord John. But I think for Jamie, I kind of want to say that maybe the fact that he just they never talked about it and he just kind of kept like Lord John is a dear friend, probably his best friend, honestly. This is the man who was raising his son. I think he, he loves Lord John, but he also isn't looking too closely at Lord John in that sense.

9:26 And it's like for Lord John to say something like that we were both fucking you. That forces him to really stop and realize, OK, this man is really like in love with me. Like it's not just a sexual thing. It's not just whatever did. He's also having to confront the fact that he has had this friendship with this with this man for so long. And this man truly, truly feels about him the way he feels about him. And I just think that just kind of set things off because it's kind of like, OK, so now you got to deal with this. Because again, now that all of that information is out in the open, there really is no way to go back to what the friendship was. And this is even before, you know, putting the whole clear thing into perspective.

10:21 But I just feel like with that conversation, the way that they had it, first of all, Lord John should have said something about the fact that he had to marry Claire to save her life. I think if you had started with that, you might have had a little more leeway. It didn't have to be so combative. But again, you've got emotions all around. Lord John is not behaving in his usual stoic, you know, dignified manner. He is like frenzied. And I'm like, well, this is what happens when you sleep with Claire Frazier. I don't know what it is about her, but she be having man just acting Boo, Boo the fool. So I don't know.

11:08 He should have started that conversation a little bit differently. And I realized he was like, worried about it. He was like, look, let me just get this out the way. I've had carnal knowledge of your wife. When Jamie said how or why, then you should have started, OK, So what had happened was you should have started with the whole spy thing and they were going to hang your wife as a traitor. I married her. It was just a marriage and name and then blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's not like you didn't have the time before y'all started going that before y'all started fighting each other. You had time to sit there and properly explain it.

11:49 But the fact that you know that Jamie Fraser has the temper that he has, obviously you know this because you're raising his son. His son has the same temper as we see in this. Episode as as as we see. So OK, we're going to move away from Lord John and Jamie right now because there's a lot to unpack with that. So we'll come back to it because I'm sure we both have more to say. But since we mentioned William, let's talk about baby boy 'cause woo woo like. I I, I don't know what to say. I I did say that I felt bad for him however you know he dumb piss me off. 'Cause he messed with your boy.

12:39 He messed with you and not that he fought him because first of all, maybe he didn't know. Just don't assume. But you know what? From conversations. Yeah. He OK? Yeah, Ian knew. So yeah. Yeah. I'm never mind even. If he knew that does not give you permission to throw your hands and and hit him and then when he hits you back and you have him arrested. That's why Rachel, I didn't attack him. She was like, duh, yes, you did. You did get him in the face. But you did and all because then you realize, oh y'all get married, dude. All last week that's all she was talking about.

13:21 In in, in, in in in in in in in in. Where you been? Yeah. Where have you been? So you are saying that and then? Understand his whole world is falling apart. I know all at the same time. I get it though. I do get it. It's spiral. And in that spiral you felt the need. After you get her fiance arrested, you don't kiss her. William, William. William William. So. But you done messed up though 'cause you messed with my aunt Mama give you. I'm going to give you some leeway because I understand that you truly are upset. Right.

14:03 But here's. The fact who you are because you don't know who you are. If you were going to kiss Rachel, you should have done that before. Long time ago. Like you had, you had your chance, you had your moment, you could have at least threw your hat into the ring and been like, OK, I understand that you're all about E&E and but I just need you to understand that I kind of love you too. And, you know, but I don't know, maybe he's too much like his father in that way, like Lord John keeping those emotions to the to the vest. And then now that everything is falling apart, he's just exploding. You know, he comes and talks to Claire and get some, you know, a little bit of information from her, which doesn't really happen like that in the book, if I remember correctly. But I'm kind of glad that they had it because with Jamie and Lord John both not being there to answer questions, he needed something, you know.

15:00 But again, I have to remember 1700s because his first assumption that his mother is a whore just because you know, all of the stuff that it's just kind of like. Right. To like, and he was like, yeah, they said she was reckless. They said she was reckless. I need you to calm down. I need you to get at least part of the story. Just get, get, get enough of the story to kind of make you stop and say, OK, maybe I should wait and hear the whole story before I just start going off. And no, you start throwing things in the house. You, you break the chandelier, you break the mirror. And it's just, it's just a lot. And then you go to the brothel and you meet this, you know, you meet one of the women in the brothel and you have a moment where you lash out at her.

16:01 You grab her, you're rough with her. And then you kind of realize, like, oh, shit, what am I doing? And I'm just like, William, I need you to calm down. But I will say this, I'm glad that they did show that part because that means that a part of the story that I was sure they were going to bring into the show is going to happen. So I'm looking very much forward to that. Oh, because they brought Jane in. Yes, because they brought Jane in. I also am glad that they aged her up for the show because in the book Jane is, I believe, 15. Oh no. Yeah. And she has been working in the brothels since she was like 11. He'd been living there since 9:00. So.

16:45 So I'm glad that they aged her up because in the books, William does develop a genuine affection for her. But it's more so like, yes, he does visit her in the brothel, but just like it happens here, he's trying to keep her from that other soldier. I can't remember what his name was because he is a right ass in the books. So he's trying to protect her. And then of course they do. I think they do sleep together maybe once or twice because of course it's kind of normal back then for that type of thing to happen. But then after that he takes more of a protector stance with her.

17:28 And it's, it's a very sweet relationship in the book. So I'm I'm glad to see it in the show. I'm sure it's probably going to be a little bit different since the characters aged up a little bit, right? I, I think we'll still get to see the bulk of that relationship, which is good for me because it's one of those storylines that I really do enjoy in the books, You know, just kind of seeing William and how he's trying to deal with all of these revelations and all of these things that he's dealing with, but also him having a part of the story to himself that does not really involve the rest of the characters. I did enjoy that seeing that because that made me, it endeared me to his character a little bit more, you know, because one of the things that you and I have talked about is, is William being raises who he was the 9th Earl of Ellesmere.

18:22 He's raised with a lot of privilege, a lot of, I will say entitlement. He's raised to kind of have a certain world view. That's not necessarily, let's say, the same type of worldview he would have if he was being raised by Claire and Janie. So you start to see the growth of his character and the maturing and kind of the change, like he's really starting to have to look at things in a different way. And that will happen with his character in the show. And I'm I'm looking forward to that because again, it's one of the things I enjoyed the most about reading the later books. It's just seeing more of Williams character. So. But boy, let me tell you. I'm glad that he had the opportunity to release some of that with her.

19:08 Like to say out loud, you know, I'm a bastard. And I felt bad when you say all I had was my word. And you kind of made me take my word, break the word. I felt like, oh, ma'am, you could have just left him alone for this one night. He just needed his word. But you know what, I got to say it too. He probably needed that more. He did because he's isolated from everyone now and he just, I, I feel like he just needed a comforting touch. He did. He, I mean, he absolutely did. And he needed to express that to her, to someone, Sir, what he was feeling. Yeah. So.

19:48 But also it's good so he so he can let her know. OK, look, I'm not a I'm not a Dick like this in person all the time. Like I'm, I'm genuinely struggling with stuff. Yeah, yeah. I would have never put my hand on you otherwise, because you if if Lord John and Jamie found out that he put his hands on her, oh, he would be in the ground. Both of them be like no this is not what we do but. He had to get them their frustration out. But let me tell you the fact that he was acting so out of character that he made Rachel of all people. Yeah.

20:32 Slap him because of the way he was acting. I was like, you know what? Well, I mean. Hope that snaps him out of it. Well, you know, it, it, it didn't 'cause he still was. I was went to the brothel in that way. Still angry. But yeah, it was, he was all over the place. I mean, he was, he was all over the place. Rightfully so though. Yeah, rightfully so. He took it out on the people that was closer to him at the time. And, and it kind of mimics the way his sister found out about Jamie and Claire and the way that she behaved because she pretty much had the same reaction. Yeah. And this is something she also warned Lord John about, you know, she said. He's gonna, you know, when he finds out or if he finds out, he's gonna be angry.

21:23 He's gonna feel betrayed. But it is. But there's some things you can't say in front of Ian, too. You can't be talking about Ian, Uncle slash daddy. No, no. Especially after. You just lost his his dad. You just lost him, and at this point William knows that Jamie is alive, but Ian doesn't. Right, so he thinks both his uncle and his dad is dead. Dead. And you want to talk some mess about Jamie? Oh no, he's not going for that. Then the way you, the way you kind of come across is like cousin, oh, so you know, And then Rachel's like, what? Oh, that and Wayne was like, what do you mean that she was like, well, you know, when I kind of look at you, you.

22:09 Can kind of, I love it. She's like, I kind of see it. Yeah, you kind of see it. And it's so interesting because later on in the episode when Jamie does appear and because he sees Anne and Rachel tells him what happened, when he pulls William to the side and they're looking at each other. You can like their facial features are not all, like their noses are different. But you can tell that Charles van der Wart, who plays William, you can tell that he has studied Sam Heuen and the way he makes his facial expressions because there are some moments where he does very much resemble him and kind of like the cock of his head or the way he stands or just certain mannerisms. So yeah, Rachel was like.

23:05 Yeah, I can see it, Yeah. And I, I, you know, I guess in some ways that might have made it worse because he was like, oh, if there, if you can see it, who else can see it? Who else is known? And that's just going to add more and more his distress. But at this point, it's kind of like that there really is nothing you can do about it now. Like it's out in the open now. So unless you all just continue to pretend, which at this point, I don't know because William doesn't know what has transpired between Jamie and Laura John. So he doesn't know that right now they're at odds. He doesn't know that while they were in the middle of their discussion, they were set upon by some some of the rebels.

23:52 And because they are familiar with Lord John, because they've seen him sitting on his porch in his uniform, they're like, oh, yeah, this dude is a, he's a, he's a British officer. And Jamie is trying to tell them, look, this is personal business. We just, you can just go about your way. But of course, again, here's the whole thing. You are friends with a British officer. You are friends with a rebel soldier, not only a rebel soldier, a well recognized general of the militia. So right then and there, y'all 2 being together, having whatever kind of discussion is, is not, you know it. It is very suspicious.

24:37 Again, if y'all had just said so, this is a matter of personal matter about my wife, they probably would have left it alone. They probably would have left it alone, but there was something about the name because apparently there was a a British soldier by the name of Charles Gray, who is some distant relative to Lord John, who has caused some commotion within the rebel camps, within the rebel army, killed a few people. And so they're looking for a way to make an example. And of course, his cousin just happens to be here, has no pet. You know, they don't have any kind of papers or Jamie doesn't have papers supposedly on him.

25:24 And they're like, yeah, we're just going to take them. We're going to take them. And then when they do take them, they find a letter of Commission. In his. Pocket from how ordering him back into reinstate and he didn't even know because he hadn't had time to read the letter. Matter of fact, I think that's what what that's what he was getting ready to read when Jamie burst in the door in the bedroom. So he hadn't had time to read it yet. So now this makes it look like he's a spy 'cause he's not in uniform. He was just getting beat up. He said he lying about his service. I was just like Jamie.

26:09 You could have tried harder to save him because you, I understand that you may do certain things as far as if he's a prisoner, you're not gonna just outright kill him or whatever. But bro, this is not anything good for for Lord John. It's not. And I was like, I'm skipping to the end. Did he get shot? Did he get shot? Oh, spoil his friends 'cause I don't like that he already in the dark, he can't halfway see they chase snapped to him with dogs and guns. I said, do we really have to end the episode like this? I.

26:56 Don't think he got shot but. I'm not. I'm gonna assume he's he did, I mean. He's not dead. I will say that he's not dead. He's not. Dead right? And I, I'm assuming he wouldn't be dead because if we still need, we still need some client and him to have some type of conversation 'cause then William would be even more devastated if he dies and he had a chance to tell him how upset he was, but then also tell him that he loved him. It'll be so much worse for William so. We're not gonna do that. That's why I was like, I don't really like how this episode ended. I don't really. Yeah, it it's to keep you in suspense. I don't remember if he if he actually got shot or what may have happened because again, some things that are going a little bit kind of out of out of order, if I can, if I can say that because leading up to this point, there's some other stuff that that would have happened.

27:58 So yeah, I'm not sure. I don't think he got shot, but I mean, look, Lord John is just not having what is it? I saw somebody say it and I I had been thinking that he's he's having a note on what is it a no good, terrible, bad. I can't remember the name of the children's book, but he's having one of those days. He's just, it's just not poor Lord John. He's just now he's in enemy hands. And apparently the person who is in charge of the camp that he's at, he knows because there was some dialogue between them, like they knew each other.

28:44 But aside from him calling him Smith, we don't really know anything about this person. We just know that he's like, OK, well, you know, I hate to have to do this, but yeah, we're going to let. We're going to let the camp Doctor Who just happens to be Denzel Hunter. Yay, treat you. But then I'm going to go off to the side and make a secret, you know, a secret communication and find out. Oh, OK, So what we're going to do is we're going to hang you as an example, but I'm not going to tell you that I was just like Lord John. You just get out. You need to. Get out right. So I'm glad he's running, but.

29:25 He's not in the best shape to be running right? No. That's what I'm saying. That's why I was like, I really didn't care for how this episode ended. Yeah, he can't. Yeah. And and it's so funny the how everything is doing the the reveal about Jamie being alive because like I said, Jamie comes out of the woods while Ian is being, you know, I'm not not drug, but he's, you know, kind of handcuffed and following behind the wagon. And he looks at Jamie and you can see he wants to react. He wants to cry, he wants to laugh. But he's like, oh, OK, let me just be quiet and see what's going on. Because at this point, you know your uncle enough to know something ain't right.

30:10 Right he he bout to try to get you out. That's what you already know. So just just keep quiet. That too. But and then when Lord John sees Denzel in the camp and Denzel was checking out his eye, he was like, yeah, this eye is not that good. I do wish your wife was. He he was like wife. Haha. I have no wife. You would know why. Because Jamie Fraser is not dead. And Denzel's looking like, huh, Yeah, they just. Poor Lord John. He just got so much going on, trying to keep from being hung. And then Denzel actually does something that he probably shouldn't do as a Quaker, but he's basically like, yeah, I'm gonna bring you some lunch, and I'm also gonna bring you a knife so you can cut yourself out. You need to go.

30:58 Need to go tonight. Bye. Oh, So which the Quakers, We got both of the Quakers acting right heuristically. This. But I like that though 'cause he was. Like you got to go right 'cause they gonna kill you. Like you are a friend even though you are, you know, and, and again, these blurred lines, British rebels. But you know what? You are a person that I like and I respect. You need to get the fuck out now 'cause they're gonna kill you in the morning. Bye. But he can't have C. And then the person Smith, who is in the tent with him sleeping, happens to turn over and notice that he's gone.

31:42 I was like, you could've just. You could've been in the deep sleep you want. Roll over now. Stirring earlier. I know, but you want roll over now. Yeah, I kind of feel like John probably should have waited a little bit longer to make sure he was deeply asleep, but there's no telling how long that would have taken that would have, you know, cut down on the amount of time he would have had to escape. So I mean, he's, he's caught between a rock and a hard place. He has, he has no friends around him. The one person who probably in any other instance would have come to rescue him is the person who is kind of sort of responsible for him being in this, you know, in this situation in the 1st place. So it's just kind of like he doesn't have much to go on. Nobody knows where he is right now. Jamie doesn't even seem.

32:38 Like he cared. Yes, that's and that's another. That's another thing that bothered me. He's angry, he's very angry. And sometimes when we're angry, we say think and do things that we don't really feel, but we're just letting that and, and, and I think once he calms down, once he kind of gets over the upset, now that he and Claire have had that that conversation, that that hard conversation, and now that they've had the table sex, I think he'll start calming down. He'll be like, OK, you know, maybe I acted a little bit rashly, maybe. But he's still going to be pissed for a while.

33:19 And again, I don't think it had to do. I don't think he's being pissed had anything to do with Claire, especially once Claire, it kind of explained the situation and was basically like this was not us making love. It was it was literally animal me. I needed something different. I needed somewhere to place my anger. I needed somewhere to place my rage. I needed somewhere to place my grief and he took it all. You know what, whatever you want to call it. I think now that she has explained that he won't be so mad about that part because when you look at it in that way, Lord John was there for her in ways nobody else could have. So and then again, this is somebody who she would never have those kind of romantic feelings for. So it's not like it was something that he should be threatened by.

34:14 But again, Lord John's feelings for him, the fact that he now has to like really openly confront that, I think that's kind. That's just kind of like, OK, yeah, I kind of sort of gave him to some some rebels, but I kind of sort of didn't have a choice. He should be OK, but again, he doesn't know about the the letter in John's pocket up until later on. Then it's like, oh shit. Yeah. Oh, and Speaking of which, the whole reason why he's running from soldiers in the 1st place because even Lord John says you just got the time. May I ask why soldiers are chasing you? And he had his papers. That was what we thought.

34:56 He didn't have papers. He said he had his papers. But I guess the, I guess the, the soldier who was looking at him didn't like, didn't like the look of them and wanted to search him. And he had some things on him that he did not want found. And those turns out to be some letters and some information from France that he brings to none other than General George Washington. Right. And it was, it was funny because watching this, Anthony was in the background say, OK, so so now with George Washington, I'm like, Yep, we're at that point, George Washington. Yep.

35:41 And then when George Washington offers him a position, you know how I was in the background. No, no. Please turn him down. No. Especially considering the fact that you haven't even properly reunited with your wife yet. Like you had the one moment in the house but y'all haven't even had a sit down to say. I'm so glad you're you're not dead. Can you tell me exactly what happened? And they, you know, they get this later on, but when he comes in later on to have that conversation with her, he's already pierced and in a foul mood. So it's just kind of like, no, don't.

36:23 Why are you accepting commissions? And you ain't even had like. What? Yeah, So, you know, I was already screaming. No, no, no and no. Damn. You just get, you literally just got back. Can we fix? Look, can we fix what's going on right here in your family? First raised from the dead. Damn. Your wife married to another man, Which I'm starting to think he probably heard a little bit about that. Because if he got back and he said he heard the uterpy sink, he knew Claire would be worried. Maybe somewhere around there if he asked, you know, have you seen a Madam French or Lord John Gray or whatever?

37:06 Somebody might have said Lord John and Mistress Gray. They might have said something that kind of tip him off, but he probably wasn't thinking about that. He was probably just like, OK, I need to get to my wife and we'll figure this out. But then the way that all of that stuff is revealed, it's just kind of like, no, but that conversation that they had, I, you know, I was really, really trying to be patient with Jamie because I realized you've been gone for months at this point and you come back, your wife is married, your best friend, your best friend has slept with your wife. And then kind of sort of not necessarily bragged to him about it, but like he said, when the the rebels pulled him off, he was like, and I'm not sorry about it either. So, so you got a little bit of.

38:04 Right. And just. And I and Claire kept asking like, where? What? Where is he? Is he dead and. I'm like, that's what bothered me. That's, that's what bothered me 'cause I, I, I now I understand it's not the same, but to me it's the same. Now I understand you guys issue with Claire and the ether 'cause that's how I'm feeling about Jamie's reaction. I feel like it's not really him. Yeah. So that's what bothered me with this episode. Yeah. So I'm to be completely honest, I like disconnect because even they have great communication but they still was missing a piece when they were communicating.

38:52 Like she was telling him everything that needed to be said, but like from him it was like missing pieces. But again I. For me, yeah, you, for you to realize that you got to understand, like you need to be a little bit more caring that they not they just Claire, let's just say Claire period, thought you were dead. You literally just came back. When you came back to say you're not dead, you run off with Lord John. You leave him somewhere. You you go off, do some other things. You deal with George Washington, then you come back and you're acting, kind of.

39:36 Angry. Right and cold and, and I, I had an issue with that 'cause I'll be like, I, I'm jealous, Claire, I just need to understand and. We know Jamie is a jealous man. Right. And I get that and I totally get it. But some of it like you're even when you were mad sometimes at people, you still kind of cared, like what was happening to them. You just let you have no idea what they're doing to Lord John. None, and you have no urgency to go get him. Instead you're screwing on the table. That bothered me too. Yeah. 'Cause you don't, you really don't know. It's not like you left him in the pub drinking. He'll make it home like he's been taken. He literally could be hanged.

40:31 You really don't know. Right. So that kind of that that this kind of that bothered me just to tell you that just that just bothered me a tad just to tell you. Yeah, I mean, and I understand that because it's kind of like you're having this conversation with your wife and all you can focus on this is, is your anger. And it's like she's trying to tell you there, there is no one. There is really no good way to explain any of this. And again, I kind of feel like why has nobody mentioned the fact that, oh, so this all started because I got caught being a spy and he was trying to keep me from being killed as a service to you, as some, as the last good service he could do for his friend. Why?

41:28 Why y'all, why nobody is mentioning this as a starting point? It's so confusing to me because if you really think about it, if you really think about it, do you really think that Claire's just going to up and marry somebody else after a couple of weeks? What? Right. That's what I'm saying. That's what and then all that I'm be honest with you, all that Lord John has done for you, but she really did not have to do and continue to do.

42:11 You better be glad that man in love with you 'cause right, so he could have sent you to the States from Arts Mirror. Right. Or even just his his relationship with William. It could been told, it could be totally different. I'm talking about even way before that. That's true. Way before that, Jamie could have been further imprisoned after that escape attempt when he tried to when he went to Silky Island, he came back. Lord John could have had him in prison for the rest of his life. Right. On when ours mirror closed, he could have sent Jamie to the States with the rest of the men. Told her Sandy, But even now, even even to this date, because you can be like, OK, that was in the past, but even up to now he's been loyal.

42:58 So I don't know, I just it's just me. I just wasn't feeling. But was it like that in a book or and it's just not playing well on the screen right now like their interaction at that part, is it better in the book? From what I remember, I would say yes, but I would say yes because they don't have the constraints that you have filming a show trying to tell so much story in a few. Right. And I I totally get that, but just his just the just what is happening, even if if it was even spanned out, I'm just not really caring about that interaction and his reaction. So that's what I'm saying is the reaction better in the book? But I think it's probably better, but because it's more explained of why he's feeling that way. And here they still could have done it, but it's just, it's just not to his character.

44:01 To me, it's something about it that's just not him. Yeah, but I, I mean. But some stuff was funny though, because she didn't quite like what he said. You do leave with your body. She's. Laughing, he was like, she was like also I'm a whore now. He was like, no, that's not what I mean. Like and I get what he was trying to I get. What he was saying too, but it was a. Harsh conversation already, you just did not say it in the the right way, so yeah. Like you, you talk with your body, you express sometimes your emotion with your body.

44:42 But I didn't mean it that you were a whore, right? I got it too what he was trying to say, but she was like. Yeah, this is one of the one of the times when Jamie Fraser's words failed him, right? Yeah, but but yeah, I think I think with them only having what is the 7-8 episodes on this back half again, there's so much story that I think they're going to put in this last season and 1/2 of the story, all the stuff without Arabella slash Jane. I didn't think that they were going to delve into that because I was like, how are you going to have time? Because Jane for William that the storyline and the relationship between Jane and William and the things that happen from this point on is such an integral part of William's growth.

45:44 Mm hmm. And of, and I will be honest, it's, it's a, it's a little bit of can't say without spoiling it, But I, it's just, it's very important to the story. I didn't know if they were going to be able to do it. But even though they're bringing her in, I feel like the storyline is going to be condensed because there's some major things that are going to have to happen in order to push William's story forward and to push Jane's story.

46:26 And then I will just say in the books, Jane has a little sister. So like I said, William becomes kind of a protector of them, trying to make sure that, you know, that he he's trying to help them get out the brothel. He's trying just different things. And I just feel like in in a sense, it's probably going to be rushed in the show because there's also, yeah, there's also another key character that is coming in that I didn't know if they were going to do that storyline. But then there was like a little interview video with some of the characters. And one of the characters was talking about, I think the the question was, who is more romantic, you or your character?

47:14 And one of the one of the actors said, well, I think we'll see that my character is a little bit more romantic. You know, up until this point, no, but we, there are, there is some stuff coming up that, you know, that'll show us a different side to the character. And I was like, yes, they're doing that storyline, but I was like, wait, now, because if you bring that storyline and that means there's at least four more characters that are going to have to come into the store. And I just don't. I don't. Know, I don't know. They don't have the time for that. So I would say if they do bring those characters, if they do bring that storyline, if they do have to condense it, I hope they condense it in a way that makes sense. Like with the whole thing with Claire and and Lord John and everything, from the time that Claire left Scotland, we knew that there was chunks of time going by. It wasn't like this all happened in a few days. Like this is a course of several months from the time that Claire left Scotland to the time that Jamie returns. So I think they did a good job with that, even though, yes, I I do kind of feel like some of it is rushed. But again, I think for the amount of Canon that there is in the books and what they can and can't do on screen, I think they're doing a really good job.

48:41 Because I don't, I'm looking at it and especially now that I know the story, I can see what changes they've made and what sacrifices they've had to make so far. And I'm just like, OK, I'm not all that bothered by it because I know we're, we're pressed for time. And the way that they're telling the story is not, it's, it's not detrimental to what's going to happen on screen. I don't feel like because I'm looking at this and I'm like, OK, I, I'm following the story. There's not anything that's really going on that's making me feel like, so how did they get to this point? I think the only thing is that person who was keeping Lord John hostage, the fact that he referred to him as Smith and kind of made references to like, a past, I don't even want to say relationship, a past acquaintanceship or something between them.

49:39 I was like, OK, I had to sit here and think, and I think I remember who this person actually is. So I made take a look at the books and be like, OK, let me see if it's this person. Oh yes, Oh no. But aside from that one person, because of the way that they introduced them, I, I think they're doing a good job. It's just that, like I said, there's so much story. And yes, I do believe that conversation with Jamie and Claire. I do believe there was much more to it in the books. But again, you have the benefit with the book of that thing could have been 1020 pages long full of dialogue. But you you can only do so much in our episode, especially when if you're trying to get to several other plot points in in the storyline.

50:31 So I don't know, hopefully Jamie got whatever piss tivity he he had towards Claire. Hopefully he's got that out of his system and they can actually focus on trying to find Lord John. And then, as we see in this episode, he really does need to have a conversation with his son. Yeah, he does. And. Not throwing them up against the tree. But you know what? I'm kind of glad that he did that because I feel like William had this attitude that because Jamie lied to him, because of, you know, because of the secret, because of the way that he found out, because he feels like he has the right to be pissed, which he does. I think he really thought that Jamie was just going to let him talk to him any kind of way and.

51:28 Right. And that's not going. To happen. Like hold up, let me let you in on the little secrets. You know me, but you don't know me. Right. So let me show you who I really am now. He threw that boy up against that tree. He was like you. Whatever you got to do, you are going to go get my nephew out of that. Right. He was like, Boo, you bout to get this together? My bro I maybe I didn't raise you. I did raise that one. Or. We not gonna do. You see 'cause you upset, right? But. Yeah, they don't have to have a conversation, but they got to find they need to find Louis John first.

52:10 Please. And he needs to care. And I think he does, but. I mean, I know he does, but anger is going to be with him. Well, hopefully when they're done on the table he can go like try to find out where he is and rescue him. Curtains all open. I mean, I understand you didn't want to go to the same bed where she laid, where she lay with, with John, but still, it's like, where was Missus Fig at the time? Was Missus Fig just like, oh, I'm just going to go into the kitchen and I'm just going to stay there for a while. Or maybe she was cleaning up Williams. Yeah, I don't. Know. They're right there. So I don't know. But you know what they got, they got whatever they needed to out their system. They got that one good, you know? OK, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get back in my body. I gotta get OK.

53:02 So now y'all need to start fixing some shit. Go find sit down with William. And and, and I don't even know if Jamie has told Claire yet that he said this new Commission 'cause you know, she's not going to be pleased about that. But, I mean, she said in the last episode that what did she tell Ian? You know, Jamie and I made a home here and we wanted to be a part of building this new nation. So I guess they're going to be building that new nation. I mean, yeah. Be a part of. It he wasn't going to have a chance to do it, and now he does. Yep, we want to be a part of it. So let me, let me ask you, during the conversations with George Washington, were you were you hearing little snippets of Hamilton in your head?

53:55 OK, It's not OK 'cause every time something. Happened. And then also because I think in one of the earlier episodes, maybe it was from earlier in Season 7, you know, Jamie mentioned the Continental Congress and I was like, oh, he's going to see Alexander Hamilton. But yeah, I just, you said you were done fighting. But I mean, I guess too, at the same time, if you have someone as respected and someone as revered as George Washington asking you to be a part of history, to be a part of this change, he probably didn't feel like he could say no. Because at this point, George Washington is like the man he is the person that's leading the rebels. He's the yeah, I, I just don't see. I don't see any way Jamie could have said no and still been OK. You know, one of the things about Jamie, his name does command respect because of all the things that he has done, not just in the lead up to the American Revolution. But of course all the people who

55:26 are fighting with him, they know a little bit about his, his Scottish background. They know a little bit about his Culloden background, his Jacobite background. So he carries a lot of respect. But I think if he had refused, he might have started having problems. Maybe not big problems, but especially the fact that, OK, you just came back in town from Scotland, you're refusing to take part in our side of the the war, which, you know, if they'll remember. Oh, yeah. You don't want to fight with us. You know, when we, when we went to Saratoga, when we were at Ticonderoga.

56:09 You don't want to do that with us either. And. Oh, what happened when people thought you were dead? Your wife married a British soldier. So they might if, if he didn't step up and say, OK, yes, I'll take this Commission. He might have had difficulties in other aspects, especially because Claire don't know how to sit down and just wait. But I mean, again, she, she did kind of put herself in that position to where she had to marry Lord John because she was trying to help Mercy out. So I don't know.

56:50 I just, you know, I think I said this before, I'm really tired of the war stuff. I know it's got to happen and I know we've got to go through that. I understand it. That's why I was screaming no, no, no. 'Cause now you know we're going to see some more battles. Yes, yes. That's why I was. I can't. Yeah. Well, that that many because we don't have much time. That's a good thing about it. We don't have much time. So you can't. You really can't. Depends on how long they drag, like what the, what the time span is, how they, how they drag all of this out, 'cause I don't even remember what the year is right now. I know 17, I want to say 1778 or 9. I think it, it's, it's one of those two years. But yeah, I just, Jamie don't need to be fighting anymore because.

57:59 And then also, you know, if Jamie fights, Claire's not going to let him go off on his own. She's going to come because she's the surgeon. She's the medic. They're going to need her, which is true. So that means they're both going to be in it. And then of course, Ian's going to be in it. And now that he and Rachel are like together, together, it it's just they're they're. They're in it too. Yeah, they have a lot of stuff to to fit into these next season and a few episodes. And I don't even think in this episode, I don't even think we got any Brianna and Rodger stuff. No, we did not.

58:43 So. So we still got all that stuff? Yep. So wonder about this. Episode we do 'cause I was thinking that too, Like, OK, we left off cameras on the floor. Yeah. Yeah, ass tires skillet. Right. And with the knowledge that Jim is not in the past. Right. And no Roger this episode either. Yep, no. And that shenanigans found in Daddy, right? So. So yeah, they, they have a lot to work in. But like I said, I I will say this, for the most part, Outlander has done very well with merging their storylines or even when they've had to move stuff further into the storyline or take some stuff that should be happening later and putting it sooner in the episodes.

59:42 They all work because I don't think I've had a real like complaint complaint about the pacing of this show. No, I didn't the only. Thing was, the whole Ether storyline and the Lionel Brown storyline and even. When I that did that did. My my rewatch that wasn't as bad as I remember. It wasn't bad. It did. It did. It didn't bother me. I know it bothered you, but it did drag just a little bit, just a little bit. But then we're just make, we're making up for it now because now we're just like we were going 35, now we're going 60. Yeah, yeah. But it's a nice 60.

1:00:23 Like I'm not missing anything. Yeah, it's just a tad bit faster. Yeah. No complaints on that because then with that you almost like, OK, well you get a lot of, you can get a lot of story in. Yeah, I just wish that they would have given US1 more season. But right. And that would have gave time for, I guess, him coming back from the dead. And that was whole interactions. And it would have been more. Yeah, yeah. And I think if we had had more like if we had another season or even just a few more episodes because I don't think seasons season 8 is very long. It might be 7 or 8 episodes, but give us maybe one or two more episodes.

1:01:13 We could have spent maybe a little bit more time in Scotland. Because that is one thing I that is one thing I am disappointed about for this season because there was such a big build up to it about them getting home, about them going to Scotland, them getting in home, them seeing the family. And then we literally got what, 2 episodes? Maybe not even the full 2 episodes. And then they had to leave. Yeah. And it, it was basically them coming, you know, to say goodbye to big in which yes, that happens in the books, but there's also a lot more story in between there. So you get you get the feeling of being in Scotland for a lot longer.

1:01:58 Yeah. So. So yeah, I get that, yeah. But I, I, I don't know. I just, I think first and foremost, we need to find Laura John. We need to rescue him. We need to figure out if he was because I, I don't think he was shot. Maybe it was just to scare him because shooting him when he escapes, I don't think will work out for the British Army the way they need it to. Like they were really going to hang him because they needed to set an example. And the only thing that you're showing if you if you shoot him when he escapes is that your people weren't competent enough to keep hold of 1/2 blind, you know, half blind bound prisoner. Like how did he get away?

1:03:01 How did y'all let him escape? You got 3 guards standing from the tent. Didn't nobody say let's go check the back, let's check things, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I know. So find him. William needs to get all of that anger out his system, which I know that's not going to be an overnight thing, especially for him. Like it was different for Brianna, I think because one Brianna had a different, she had a different support system because she had Rodger there while she was figuring all of this out. Yeah, she did, you know.

1:03:43 And he really don't have anybody. No, because the one person he thought he had, she's engaged to somebody else now, his cousin on top of that. So not only has he lost the the, I guess the love of his life, she's about to be family. And she knew all along. That poor baby. Yeah, she suspected. But yeah, I I think even in the book when that revelation came out, she was like, oh, what secret that Jamie is your father. He was like, excuse me. But she was like, it's like looking in a mirror, like y'all into it, you know? Because like I said, in the books, they are mirror images of each other, which is one of the reasons why Jamie has stayed away from him so long.

1:04:33 And the older he gets, he's like, yeah, I'm never going to see him again because the the minute he looks at me, he will not. Well, it's all out in the open now. So now we got to deal with, we got to let William work through his anger. And then there needs to be a little bit of acceptance. And then he needs to figure out what he's going to do because he can still tell people that he's the 9th Earl of Ellesmere. And I think nobody would question it. But he was raised by Lord John. So I feel like he's going to have that same type of code of honor that Lord John does. He's not going to want to lie. He's not going to want to claim inheritance and property that does not belong to him by right.

1:05:22 So it's going to be interesting to see where he goes from here. I don't think he will be that quickly reconciled to lower John or Jamie. Not like Brianna was, because Brianna literally had the truth pushed in her face. You know, as far as Claire and the stones with Gaylors Duncan, That's that's the other thing. Brianna had something else. She had another catalyst to make her say, oh, wait, my mom is not crazy. She's telling the truth. William doesn't have any of that, and he can't even add the people who he really wants to ask. He can't even ask because both Geneva and Isabel are gone.

1:06:03 Yeah. So even if Jamie were to tell him the truth about what happened, he's only hearing Jamie's side of the story. Jamie. I mean, truthfully, he doesn't know Jamie. He doesn't know that Jamie is also an honorable man. So if Jamie were to come to him and say, yeah, your mom basically blackmailed me because she didn't want to be a virgin when she got married to this 80 something year old man, William could always say you might be lying. I mean, think about it. She he even asked Claire like, was it rape? And I'm like, do you everything that you know about Claire? Do you think Claire will be with Jamie if he raped, like if he raped Geneva?

1:06:45 And not only that, but the product of that, quote, UN quote rape was walking around? That's not clear. Right. And I'm gonna talk about it with you like that. Don't even seem. Yeah. Right. But again, he's he's a little. Place he's spiraling so. Yeah, so I, but I just, again, like I said, I just kind of wanna reach through the screen and kind of give him a hug and say it's gonna be OK. But yeah, he's going to have to go through some stuff because now he really, really has to grow up. Yeah, he. Does like, no doubt about it now there's way too much stuff going on. And then depending on what happens with Lord John, like if he wasn't shot, but maybe he was recaptured, that's going to add some stuff.

1:07:33 And then once they started realizing, OK, there might be something seriously wrong because he has not come back yet, just like with Missus Fix saying, yeah, so Lord John was supposed to, he was supposed to go to General Clinton, and he hasn't shown up yet. And that's when Jamie and Claire realized that he's been recalled to action. Now they really going to have to see him be like, oh, shit, what do we do? Like Jamie is going to have to go and fix that somehow. And I don't know how he's going to do that unless, oh, wait, unless he calls on his new friend George Washington, and be like, hey, I know he's a British soldier. I know he's an enemy.

1:08:17 But did you do me a favor? And release him and release him. That's what I thought was going to happen. But when he didn't mention and he didn't mention it, I was like, well damn. He's just really just leaving them out there to drive. Because he probably didn't think that it was going to be something that serious. Because this is, again, like, like Lord John said, this is a distant cousin that would be like me being held responsible for something that one of my second or third cousins who I've never met has done. But back then, I guess they really don't care. They're like, oh, your name is Grey. OK, you'll do.

1:08:59 Yeah, that's it. That's all we need. That's all we need. That's all we need. But no, not that one. Y'all can't have him. No. So something's gonna have to happen whether he has another escape attempt or whether somebody comes to his rescue and be like OK, look, y'all can't hang this man because ABC. Something's gonna have to happen though, because Lord John needs 1. He needs to escape so he can go get that ugly ass eye looked at because that thing looks. Horrible, horrible. Horrible. It does. Like, like Jamie, were you only focusing on the left side of his face? Right.

1:09:45 Oh my goodness. So yeah, he needs to get that taken care of before he's permanently mine. And then he'll be no good to nobody because they're just going to look at him and be like, oh, you're blind, you can't serve in the Army, you can't do this, you can't do that. What good are you? That's how they're going to treat him. It's bad though. It it, it really is. It is 'cause he can't even move his eyeball up and down. So yeah, he needs to be rescued. He needs to escape. Whatever part. Pardon him, Whatever. Yeah, part part of him. Because 1 He didn't go into the town to blow it up. That was his cousin who did all that. And no, just leave him alone.

1:10:33 I'm just. I'm just to the point where I'm like, leave the Fraser's alone. Leave Ian alone. Leave Lord John Gray alone. Give them some time to get through all this mess, this big mess that they have made of their lives. And I guess let Jamie go to war and take his frustrations out on killing British soldiers. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just, oh, that that episode was so hard to watch at the beginning because I knew what was coming. And Lord John, the whole thing with Jamie being dead, Lord John, Mary and Claire sleeping with her.

1:11:17 That was something I was spoiled about years ago before I ever read it in the book. So I knew it was coming. But I thought it was more of a like, when people said Lord John and Claire slept together, I really was thinking I was like, they must have, I don't know, maybe falling in love with each other in their grief because I didn't know what the time span was. I just knew that this happened. So I was like, OK. And then they're like, yeah, when Jamie finally came back, he beat Lord John almost to death. And I was just like. What? So yeah, it was a, it was a hard watch.

1:11:59 I literally had to keep pausing it 'cause I was just like, I don't know how this is gonna go. And then every Time Lord John opened his mouth, I had the positive. You like, shut up, John, shut up, John, you're making it worse. You're making it worse. Shut up. Why are you saying this? Why did you say that? Oh, my God, It's, that's literally how I watched this episode because it was just so much. And I was just sitting there tense. And when I say David Berry and and Sam Hewin, they nailed that scene because you could feel everything coming off of them in waves. And I was just like, I can't do this.

1:12:40 I can't watch this. Please kiss and make up or do some shake hands and make up or do just do something and make up and go home because no one was going to happen. Like I'm like, no, I know Lord John is about to be captured and all this stuff. I don't want that. Just make up and be happy and just OK. But yeah, it's not going to happen anytime soon. They just need to rescue him though. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. Rescue him and then give us a little bit more of Ian and Rachel now that they are like fully. Oh, now they are trolled. Because let me tell you now that they are controlling. Yes.

1:13:21 Rachel I have a feeling we're about to see a whole different side to Rachel. Because right, that's not tell. I told you, I want that cap. I want that cap off. I want that cap off. I want I want that woman. Woman seen. Wonder Woman seen. Yeah. Campo take that hair and she in battle take somebody. Slapping British soldiers. Yes, take him down for her, man, Take him down. Oh goodness. Yeah. OK, but did we skip over anything? I feel like we missed something but I don't.

1:14:01 I think we talked about. Everything we talked about, everything. OK, I guess if we miss something, we'll just we'll we'll pick it up and. We talked about we because they they was really focused on William. William and then Laura. John, Laura. John and Jamie and Claire. Yeah, OK. Yeah. Because I I. 'Cause we didn't get a lot of of anyone else or anything else. No, because this this was like literally the explosive episode this was. Right, that's what I'm saying this is. This is just a fallout from that one scene at the end of last episode. And I knew when when they released the episode titles and I saw that this one was carnal knowledge, I said, OK, I'm gonna have to prepare for this one because I knew this one was going to be a heavy episode.

1:14:56 I knew I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to see John, Lord John get his ass whooped. That's why in the last episode when you were like, yeah, they just need to fight it out a little bit and that'll be all right. I was like, oh, be careful what you asked for because that wasn't a little fight like. No. I think in the I think he wasn't as bad in the show as he was in the books, because I do believe in the books he was. I think I think Jamie may have broken some ribs or something like he was, he was hurt. Oh, he was hurt, hurt. So, OK, so just in case this is the holiday season, Michelle and I both work in education and we are kind of finishing up this week before the break. So our episodes maybe a couple of days late, but we are still recording as soon as we can find the time. And, you know, our regular recording schedule for the remainder of the year is probably going to be kind of sporadic because trying to wrangle the two of us is hard enough, but also with the guys trying to do the stuff that we are doing and all of our schedules, it's just kind of impossible right now.

1:16:14 But we are going to be bringing you newer episodes, especially in January. We will be covering Doom Prophecy. Laurie will be back with us after an extended hiatus to deal with some personal stuff. So Laurie will be back to discuss doing Prophecy with us. Marvel's What If is coming out in a few days for the final season. Oh, is it? Yes, December 22nd and then. An. Episode every day for eight days and that is the season series finale, so we will be covering that. We still have a Darrell Dixon episode to talk about.

1:16:55 We still have a few episodes for the boys to talk about, so we will be bringing you that content starting at the beginning of 2025. But for now, that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media, on all the social media at Phantom Hybrid. You can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, you can chat with us on our Discord channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time. Music.