Outlander (Season 8 Episode 7) - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #405

0:24 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid podcast. This is Hanukkah and I'm here with Deanna and Michelle. We got. Both of them this week, Yay. But it's because we got to talk about episode 7 of the final season of Outlander. And I'm going to start this episode off by saying there will be some book spoiler talk in this particular episode. And also, I have said this before, I have read the books. I'm a show person. I'm very OK with separating the two and knowing that the show was going to go in One Direction and you know the books are in another direction.

1:11 With that being said, what the fuck was this episode? I'm mad at the whole entire. Episode yeah, yeah, we we need to talk about it because I will say this, as much as I love this show and as much as I'm again, I'm OK when when you make changes from book to screen, I understand some things have to change, be different, whatever, whatever. However, I will say, out of all eight seasons of this show, this is probably my lowest ranked episode ever. OK, I can understand. And I will say this too, it has nothing to do with the acting. The acting in this episode was was beautiful. It was.

1:58 Beautiful. Everything was beautiful. Let's just put that aside. Everything written, everything done was beautiful. But this goes with what I said a couple of, you know, shows ago about how, OK, we just dragging along, but then you want to get to this episode and you want to just throw stuff at us. And this happened behind the scenes. This is so you were happy, correct? That we didn't ask for and we didn't need just. Literally could have been left done. Yeah, yeah. OK. So Michelle, you, you actually have to leave early out of this recording. So where do you want to go 'cause I know the the Williams stuff we can talk about later. Do you want to go to the faith stuff or do you want to go to? The Fergus stuff real quick, will you 'cause I'll talk about that later.

2:45 I don't like him. I didn't really. He he getting on my last nerves. I didn't like how he talked to his father today. I did not. Yeah, hot and cold, hot and cold. Yeah, right. So that part, so he better get it together, right? He he got one more, he got one more episode, right. No, Nope. He did episodes. We got left three. He got 3 episodes getting together. Yeah, Nope. He he did to me. Right, 'cause today, boy, I was like, oh, I don't care. I'm like him, kick it, get out. But but OK, but go somewhere. I'm going to say this one thing as far as as far as William goes. William really needs to pay attention to what people are saying to him about him.

3:33 Because when Amaranthus had the conversation with him and she said I was I was looking for a cow. And he was like, oh, and you thought I was being would be that person. She was like, yeah, first, Sir, you need to take the fact that someone looked at you as an easy mark, and you need to think about that. You really need to think about that. Yeah. On the other hand, I can understand William being tired of everybody lying to him, everybody deceiving him, whatever. Whatever. Lord John, you got two young people in your house. Your ass shouldn't have been kissing nobody. Well, you know, I felt the moment. Too, so it's OK. And. I feel still have locked the door. But Lord John has been in the situations where he. Has been talking with his.

4:19 Pants down one too many times. I know, I know. Like, do what? I was just saying poetry, though. I mean, in a minute, yeah, I'm gonna need he. Was I'm gonna need. You to hold your horses. He was. You used to love me. Oh, yeah. OK. Remember when? Yeah. Oh, come on now, John. I want you to take my time like Percy. Here's my thing. What did you do to him? Because Lord John, when Lord John loves, he loves heart. So what the fuck did you do to him? Because he didn't just stop loving you. He didn't just like cast you off and be like, Oh, I'm not going to think about him again. You did something fucked up to him. But I digress.

5:04 That's that's the that's the least, that's the least of of the episode to me. Let's go ahead since Michelle has to leave in a little bit. Let's go ahead and talk about this Fergus bullshit because. So clearly this must be not in the books. It it is. Not OK, because I was. I was cursing your name. I was like, she should have told me this shit a long time ago. So what is happening here? You tell me everything else but you can't tell me this. I was mad. Spoiler And when I tell you this, you're going to remember that we had a conversation about this maybe two years ago. OK, so in the episode and again, we are going through book spoilers. So if you don't want book spoilers, you may want to, you know, chill out for a bit.

5:51 Later. So in the books on RE, Christian is the one that dies, and he dies in much the same way he almost died in this episode. There is a fire. They are trying to escape because the boys have the boys have been sleeping on the roof because they go up to the roof to watch the stars. Fergus goes up, he tries to save them. He basically does the same thing, but Ari Christian slips, Jermaine tries to catch him. He doesn't. And that's what I was reading to Dina when you got on the call. Because in the interviews about the show, when, when the the showrunners and the writers have been asked like, why the change? They said that they did not feel like the death of Andre Christian would fit the theme of what they were trying to do with the final season.

6:48 And then they said it's a specific line in the book that made them say, we cannot do this on TV. I'm going to read to you the last line of of what happens to Armory Christian. This is what is written in the book. The sound of his head striking the cobbles was the sound of the end of the world. No, when I read that, I had to put the book down. I couldn't read the book for several hours. I had to leave it alone because I was like, I had known that he had died. I had been spoiled about that, but I didn't know the manner in which he died. So when I read that and it was that I, it, it was horrible.

7:32 And then in the books, that kind of leads into a separate, a separate storyline for Jermaine because he's so consumed by guilt that he leaves his parents. He goes to live on the Ridge with Jamie and Claire for a little bit. So you get his own part of the story and him trying to kind of come to terms with his his guilt. He thinks his mom hates him and just all the stuff because he couldn't save his brother. But I'm aware they don't have time to do that in the show, so they scrapped it. They even understand to a degree, making Fergus the sacrificial lamb.

8:16 Yeah, I understand. You didn't have to do that. No. I mean, you OK, you could have made to the what fire dangerous. You could have made them say, OK, they go, they get they get through the fire and they're like, OK, you know what? It's time for us to go. Because the fact that y'all have been treating these threats and these letters with the joke, I get it. You're not. You're trying not to let people scare you off, but the moment somebody threatens me and talks about a fire at my children, my ass is on the way to the Ridge. Yeah. OK, so now I so I get it. So between the two, yes, someone actually did need to pass.

8:57 We we this is not, you know, superhero movies where everybody lives now this is real life. So someone had to go. I prefer Fergus and baby, yeah, 'cause he already had to deal with stuff with younger, so we can't do that to him again. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Fergus lived a full life with full love and children and probably got another one on the way to be honest with you. 'Cause they have a good time. Good afternoon. So the afternoon. If they do that, if they do that with, with Marsley, if they make her pregnant with Fergus gone, that I'm going to be upset about because in the again, in the books, they lost a child.

9:39 Fergus is still there that they they help each other through it. And she actually has twins after after this tragedy. If they do that to her in this show, I'm going to be pissed because the other the other thing is, you know, and we we've been talking about the way that we want the show to end or whatever. And I literally said for the last two episodes, yeah, just put bring everybody back to the Ridge and just let them be happy. You get the family back to the Ridge. And I saw I, you know, there was a comment in one of my groups and they were like, well, I see what they're doing. They're they're steering everybody to the Ridge. And I get it, I said. But The thing is, everybody is not on the Ridge. It feels so if they if they do that, if they get everybody to the Ridge, because of course Ian and Rachel are coming back and they have an extra child.

10:31 So I get it. The whole, you know, you lose one life, you gain another. You know, Claire and Jamie figured found out and figured out that Fanny is their granddaughter in this one. So I, I get the whole thing, but it, it felt, it felt like a cheap way out to me. And even Diana Gabaldon, like Parade magazine does interviews with her every week about the season. And literally I knew something was fucked up because I saw the kind of like the the blurb of her interview for this week and she was like, Oh no, they chick, they, they chickened out.

11:11 I said, OK, they didn't kill Andre Christian. Who did they kill? And then that's not a chicken now, that's just a replacement. It's a better replacement. He. Said that they chickened out because they didn't tell the story the way the story was supposed to be. Told well, remember, this is a different turning of the wheel. So that's not fair. We can't one side, we can't say this is a different telling than the other. OK, well, they didn't do exactly what the books say. We can't do that because there's other stories that you have read that has been brushed over us, not even brought up to a tent. Christian storyline. What was this whole? The whole episode was just.

11:52 OK, now that part was fine. Fergus Park is fine because that was life. And you kind of see that it was leading up to that anyway, because then like, oh, having loved a lot and oh, let's make babies and love all at the same time, fam, I get. That it feels like it feels like the scene and end game when all the women come together and Black Widow is missing. Yeah, I get that you're going to have that, but you're going to have this other people missing too, you know? However, what is the worst thing they could possibly have done is just say that faith was a lie to me. That's some bullshit.

12:34 I didn't care for that. Part of the story I knew they were going to come up with some way. And then then watching it, I was like, but that doesn't explain the song. But then at the end you're going to explain the song. And then I looked at the title. It doesn't even make sense. Because because if Master Raymond. Look. Quote UN quote, faith to the lace maker and said her mom sang this song to her. That means your ass was watching Claire the entire day, listening to her sing that song to that dead baby, the baby who never woke up, whose skin hadn't even finished forming, whose fingers hadn't even finished forming.

13:21 She held this baby for hours. And you want me to believe that this healthy baby, that you, it makes no sense. And I get it. They're trying to tie Fanny to the Fraser. So there's that whole sense of family again. You lost one part of your family. Now you got 1. And that's the other thing I don't like. You lose the adopted son, but you have now a so-called blood relative. It's almost like you sacrificed the one for the other. I don't like that. And then on top of that, now that means that William slept with his niece or his aunt. Well, yeah, Yeah, he slept with his niece. Yeah. Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, Game of Thrones, Game of Thrones and. No.

14:09 Oh yeah, it wasn't. Me, yeah. Yeah, that, that, that see, that's what I'm saying. We we should have went with her parents, son from blood in my blood. And that's where the path led to. So I just, I just sat there and shook my head the whole entire time. I was like, this is some crap on crap some. Beautiful acting on their. Parts but that was beautiful like it it Yeah, think about. Jumping the shark What? Yeah, we didn't need that. We didn't need that. The clothes like it was because the thing about it, it was a lot when it happened during that time. And so it was all for nothing. All the emotions, the things that they went through as a couple because of that, that was all for nothing, right? But you had this all.

14:58 Not only now were they separated for 20 years, their daughter was alive. The whole you have, that's the right one to find them. Yeah. But that's even more like, that's even more fucked up. And then let's not even talk about the fact that Master Raymond all of a sudden, like you memorize the whole song that she sang to the baby. Yeah. And it. Hurts you and was like OK well I'm going to come back and get her and maybe that's what the whole apology was supposed to be he was supposed to go back to get faith and bring her to her and and he didn't because he got caught by the king or what but the.

15:38 The point of him taking? Her is is the other thing, like if you're going to tie up loose ends, tie him up, why did he even take her to begin with? Like what was the point of what he did declare? Right, Right. Right, unless you're going to try to say, oh, he held the baby after he healed Claire and and he but again, this is a book faint. Master Raymond has this healing power. The the whole there's like a whole blue light thing that these healers can do. And it's something that happens to Claire as well later on in the books. But it's kind of like you don't introduce that in the show. So all of a sudden now you bringing us somebody who can bring a baby back from the dead because that baby was dead. Yes, it was sad.

16:21 We cried our eyes out, but that baby was dead as a doornail dead. And and now you going to have this healthy looking baby that you take to this woman. And then not only that, you have when the whole thing with Fanny talking about her grandmother being a lace maker and Jamie is like, oh, I think I bought lace from her once I heard a baby. I was like, what the fuck? Did you hear her? You were in prison and then they do that stuff at the end about, oh, I had AI had a a a lace veil made from there, and it's the one that she wore. I was like, OK, but even even with that Jamie fresh out of jail arguing with Claire, you going to take the time to go into Paris into a lace maker shop to go buy like not that really makes sense.

17:18 You got more important things going on then you need to go buy something pretty for your wife to wear to the baby's grave. It just right. It just like y'all could have done some other stuff instead of bringing this this faith stuff in. We didn't need that. There are so many other things you could have been doing if you were going to bring it just it makes no sense. I can't even think clearly and speak. It makes no sense. It doesn't. Like, did we really need that? No, that's why I was like, this is this is I knew. I knew they were going to do it.

18:04 Just the short though. Because I know. There was no figure it out. But it's just like, and one of the things we always say is that Claire and Jamie have lived a lifetime of trauma. They don't. And they already have this impending doom with the war stuff. They didn't need another tragedy on top of that to find out that your child was alive, raised without you, given information about you, was coming to search for you, and then died trying to come find you.

18:47 And then? And then and your other son died, right So and. Who? Oh my God, let's stay going back. Like I just I just I, I was not pleased with that part of the episode because when they started going in that direction, I said, are we really about to talk about this face stuff again? Like like, OK, I didn't know they were going to go in that direction. Like they they really, they really tried to stick the landing with that and it just it, it feels faucet it, it's starting to go into for me kind of like a final season Game of Thrones, terrible Thrones. Yeah, I'm thinking that they they're rushing to get through it and just get it over with because it's over. And, and, and we spent all that time, that's why I was saying the first half of the season we dragging and now we rushing at the end to throwing paint at the wall. I'm very disappointed.

19:56 Yeah, they they didn't have to do this faith storyline. The Fergus thing, If I sit with it, I can be OK with. Well, no, OK, let me let me rephrase. No, I'm. Not OK with it because I'm not OK with it, Fergus. Is about my. Favorite characters like from start to finish? Yeah. I understand though. That's the thing. That's the hard part. I understand. It's the choice between the two. Yeah, 'cause nobody. Wants and then here's the other thing, not just about having the child die, but to have it be a little person. And see, that's the. Other thing, yeah, that's the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I was like, he's already had a hard enough life.

20:42 Like why are? You why we had to do this? Again And then they were, you know, discussing, they've been discussing like, is he going to have a good life? Is he going to be OK? Is all this stuff? When I saw that baby, because I had already talked to Hanukkah, I was like, man, if they kill Henri Christian, I'm going to be real. She. Literally said that at the end, at the end last week when we right before we, you know, she was like, if they kill Henri Christian, I'm going to be mad. And I'm just sitting here like, because I really thought that's. What they were going to do? That's why I had been. Telling y'all I'm glad I didn't know, Yeah. That's why I had been telling y'all it's going to be emotional, that it's going to be an emotional episode. Like I knew it was going to be rough. OK, You didn't say.

21:23 Though I knew immediately it was going to be Fergus. Yeah. Me too soon as he got. He. Wasn't most though. I see it. You know what? I'm so damn mad right now. So mad. I was so mad I couldn't even pay attention hardly well to the rest of the episode because I was just in. And I got spoiled about it. I got spoiled that it was Fergus not even not even 12 hours into like the episode dropped Friday at midnight. I did not watch it because I knew I was like me thinking that this is going to be Ari Christian's death. I was like, I can't go to bed sobbing my ass off and then expect to get up and go to work in the morning. It's just not going to happen.

22:05 I'm like, OK, I'm a stay off social media. I'm not going to look at anything. I'll watch it when I get home. I'm at work looking for something else on Google and the the the headline comes up and the headline literally says something like outlet look shocking episode Outlander tragedy as Fergus Fraser dies. I said you know what, I'm fucking done because now y'all putting spoilers in the fucking headlines. Like just right, any it could have been clickbaity, just oh death on Outlander. And then people would have still clicked on it if they wanted to read it. But here's the thing, and this is the thing that also makes me mad about these entertainment writers.

22:49 You're going to, you're going to put a spoiler alert in the headline and say spoiler alert such and such dies. You blank out the person who dies, but then you you put a picture of the fucking person with the guy. Yeah. So I hate when that happens, Yeah. What, like give people an opportunity at least a day? It wasn't even. Yeah, give us an opportunity to look at it and to be surprised and to have the right emotional reaction. Because yes, I cried when I watched it because again, Fergus is one of my favorite characters, but I know me and I know how I watch things and I know if I did not know that Fergus was going to die, I'd have been sobbing uncontrollably. I couldn't even have a a genuine reaction because I already knew what was coming.

23:50 So I, so it's like the episode in and of itself made me mad. And then to have it spoiled for me so that I can't, you know, read it and, you know, I, I, I kind of put a rant about it on threads and somebody was like, well, stay on social media, bitch. I was off social media. Right, right. I'm like, you didn't say you got, you said you got. Right, so it was. It it was just. It was and. Also, why do we got a completely like bar ourselves from the Internet? At. All to not get spoiled like the selfishness of this time is like. Everybody wants to be so, so quick to be the first to say this, to have a reaction to, to spoil something, to to post something.

24:43 It's like that even with movies, with these people who go and stalk movie sets and they're posting, you know, they're taking pictures from the street and they're like, oh, I took pictures of the sets. I don't want to know all this stuff. Let some of us be surprised. That's the one. But I'm OK with you doing it in your video, but don't have it as the picture and just in your title, say spoilers and you have your normal picture of you and the the title of the show and that's it. Yeah. Because yeah, when I'm finished watching it, I like to watch the videos about it afterwards. I want them to talk about the same thing, but don't I hate that the same thing. You have a picture of the person who's being killed or whatever is happening as your.

25:30 Snapshot and then you like spoiler alert, such somebody dies on the Ridge or somebody die. I mean, and, and the other thing I think that really kind of upset me about the way they did the episode because of the fact that they've been focusing on Fergus's relationship with Andre Christian in the last three episodes. It's almost like you pulled a faint on us, like you made us you, you literally gave us all this relationship and then it's and and. For the book. Readers, for us watching it that way, we know what's coming.

26:11 You know, I knew there was going to be a death. I knew our it was supposed to be onri Christian In my mind as a book reader, I was prepared to deal with that on the screen. I was like, OK, I already know how I reacted to that in the books. I know it's going to be hard on on screen, but if they do it right and that was the thing I was like, if they do it right, OK, let me just let me let me get. And they could have left out the head cracking. They could have just had him fall and fade to black and then he's gone. I mean, they could have done it differently. If I don't want him, obviously, 'cause I, like I said, I don't. I didn't want him to die. Yeah, but like that.

26:52 One that one done. It if they wanted to stick to the story. Yeah, but that would have just been devastating. Just. But it's yeah, I mean, it's devastating regardless. I just, yeah, so bad. I don't, I just. And let me just say Lauren Lau and Sophie Skelton in that bedroom scene. Which is why my eyes are still red because of that scene. Really messed me up. Like, oh, so just yeah, they don't have to do us like that. Like, really? You gonna kill? You gonna kill Fergus 4 episodes before the end of the season?

27:33 He could have went to the Ridge with his family. Y'all could have just. OK, we do know, but again, they had to make a choice. I'm OK with their choice. I'm with Diana Gabaldon, she was like if y'all not going to do it the way it was supposed to be done, y'all could have just burnt the burnt the print shop down and let everybody live. Right. Or they could have made the random person who burned the print shop down get accidentally messed up and then burn up with the shop, because that happens. And then that that could have been that could have been Ferguson Marshall is cool. Like OK, now just the. Family, families, this was a core events in their life. This was a core event in their life.

28:14 So it just happened to switch people in the family. They still can have the same outcomes. She's still going to have the twins. The oldest can still feel like mom blames me. If me and my brother wasn't up on the roof, we can still have the same. If y'all can make faith be alive, Fergus could have lived. He could have lived. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. But then that's that's they should let that alone because that's even devastating. That's devastating or someone know that the child I thought was dead that I kind of got over that I didn't get over clearly because you don't get over it is then now alive, but then now dead and I can get over the fact that they were alive, had kids dead and then one of my grandkids is dead, right. Oh my gosh, you just made it worse and. It makes it even worse because they were coming to find her, so their tragedies mostly befit them because they were trying to find Claire.

29:20 How do you? Live with that, right? And I left with home pregnant. How? How do who's Faith as a grown up hear about Lady Brock to Rock and say oh she's living in North Carolina now? Because technically speaking, Jimmy has been Lady Brock to Rock for the last 30 something years. I was going to bring that up about. I was going to bring that up because I was like when you were saying they just they, they just mixed up some did a lot of stuff and just put a little something on it and try to cover it up and make it a thing. Yeah. No, because there's no way they know that that's who she was because they were on the run when they went to Paris and.

30:03 Then north and then you know, I'm in North Carolina. And you know, I'm in North. Carolina, where you could death from who told you, right? Exactly. Unless they went to visit Jenny and Jenny was like oh but I don't even think even that is crazy but still. Because I don't feel like Jenny would say it. Because and, and again, this might be reaching, but here's the thing. Remember the last time Claire and Jamie went to Scotland? Claire told her family that she was a time traveler. So if you just random nilly Willy coming to ask about Jamie Fraser and Claire Fraser, Jenny's probably going to be like, why you want to know where they at? They ain't here.

30:46 That's all you need to know. I don't see Jenny telling someone, oh, they're in North Carolina, and I don't see her sharing that information. Like she's probably told people, yeah, oh, they're over in the Americas. They're in the colonies. But I mean, my thing is, that's the only way they would know because nobody else would know where they were in Paris. So like, how are they explaining that? Like, yeah. And how did Master? I don't remember because this was a long, but like, how did Master Raymond know to call her that? I don't even remember how he would he. Wouldn't know that she's lady brought to her out because when she when she was coming back and forth to the to the shop, I think she mentioned she mentioned that name to him. So he's known her as lady brought to her out. But it wasn't I don't think too many people in France knew her. And no, actually, I think she did use that title in France. OK.

31:45 Because I think no, that was La Don Blanche they were calling her. But yeah, I think she did mention that name to to master Raymond. But Even so, that whole thing like, like I love the fact that he showed up at the end, but also that ending, that end scene, it felt very thrown together, very rushed and. Ridiculous. It didn't feel organic to to the story. It it just, it didn't. This whole episode was not great, but OK. It it was not. It was not one of my favorites.

32:26 It wasn't. And then the whole thing going back to Lord John and and William and Amaranthus and all this other stuff, that whole thing is messy. But again, the whole thing, I'm sitting here watching Percy come in to talk to Lord John, to give him what information about Richardson. We don't really need to know about Richardson at this point. Let Richardson have gone somewhere and died and be done with it. OK, so you bring Percy back into the story. You have this little flirtation thing with Lord John and Lord John. Oh, I forgot, Michelle, I had to go. But Lord John can't control his hormones. And I get it, you ain't had none in a while. And the last time you did it was with Claire. And it was that angry grief, sex, whatever, whatever. But still, you as a person who has been hiding your sexuality your entire life because you know, for you it means death in your time, for you to be so careless when you know you have William and Amaranthus in the house. House.

33:36 Both of them are pissed off at you. Yeah. And you just in the drawing room just kissing all nearly Willy like. And I was thinking, so I also was thinking like, because I was cussing at the TV and I was like, John, what are you doing? What are you doing? But I was also trying to think like, OK, he was. He had been drinking. It was clear he had been drinking and so I feel like he did let his guard down. But I just don't like I the thing about being LGBT in a situation where you're you're not out is that you don't just do things that is going to just get you caught. You don't like, you're constantly, constantly vigilant about who knows who you're doing stuff in front of. You know where you're doing stuff and and the thing and just so anybody, anybody else you know, I have experience. I know what I'm talking about, but you constantly have, unless you're trying to rebel and trying to like be out without being out, you're not doing stupid shit like that. Like that is not a thing you're doing. Like there's no getting caught because you're so ashamed and afraid of what's going on based on, you know, your situation when you're in the closet that way you're not trying to get caught.

34:55 There's no getting caught. I don't care. I don't think there's been a time where I just was out doing stuff, you know, in a way where I, me and my family would know or any of those things back in the day. And when I when I I wasn't like, you know, and to me, like the first thing I would have done was take, if I was going to do something was taking him to another room closed and locked hide. I would have I would have there's no way I would have just been in my living room like that just made me so I was yelling, I was screaming. Oh, me too. Me too, I think if if we had watched that episode together like we originally planned that that reaction video would have been just us yelling at the TV the entire. Hour the whole episode.

35:36 The whole episode, because I was like, this is late 1700s, yeah, there's no way they hung people. Yeah. For being homosexuals in that time, that's one of the reasons why he is so careful. Yeah. About what he does. And so the fact that he was just like that in his house. Yeah. I I get it. This is somebody that you were in love with. And you probably, you know, we all have that one person who gonna make us not think straight if they're standing in front of us. I get it. But you have too much to lose.

36:17 Yeah. Especially not only with your family, with your son. You're fucking military officer. Yeah, and the British Army? Yep, they will literally hang you from the gallows for that. They will, and it's wartime, so they really ain't got no qualms with messing you. You haven't even getting a trial. Shall please no. I was so mad that he did that. And then of course, here comes William. You trying to play it off? Oh, and Lord John, you are smart man. Oh, we're we're just talking business. Your son just caught you with your mouth in this man. Locking lips, baby, wholeheartedly locking lips. And yes, William was out of pocket. But again, this is late 1700s.

37:06 This is the way he's going to react because again, this is you have been brought up to think that this is wrong. It's a crime against God, it's a crime against your king, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he had the reaction he was supposed to have, right? Yeah. Not only that, here is yet another secret that has been kept from you. So not only are you not my father, but you are also, you were never into my mom because you are clearly like he just I, I can imagine, like he gets on my nerves because he is kind of a petulant child, but I can imagine the things that just went through his mind. Like, so basically, you didn't even really want to be with my mom. You just or my auntie or whoever. Yeah, my auntie.

37:50 Was it an auntie? Yeah, it was an auntie. Yeah. You didn't even want to be with her, so you didn't even love her. Like, why? Why'd you marry her? Like I could just see like all the things that was like in his brain right then. And that's the thing, like when Lord John, when he went off on him and I was like, oh, finally, Lord John, OK, you're showing. You're showing some substance because you like you look angry. Yeah. I get it. Yes. We have done a lot for you. We have sacrificed a lot for you. Because again. Yeah. Lord John, he married Isabel so that he could be William's father. That means that he had to stay faithful within that marriage because we know the type of person Lord John is.

38:30 Unless he and Isabel had some kind of agreements that. OK, well, I am really into you. You can go do the kind of like Franken and and Claire did, you know, OK, we're not together. But if you going to do your thing, you need to be discreet. OK. And if they had that, then that's fine. But again, this is not something William knows. And it's not a conversation that you've had with William. So of course he's going to act out and call you names because again, here it is in a day full of lies. Here comes another lie on top of everything else, because he does come back from from his whole ordeal with Ben. He does confront Amaranthus and Amaranthus also confesses to Lord John.

39:16 And it's just that whole situation is messy. Like, I get Amaranthus, I get her motive because again, like she said, you ain't never been hungry. I have. And I would do whatever it takes to make sure my son doesn't go through that. OK, I get it. I have no problems with that. But coming from William, from his perspective, here's another person who basically used him, lied to him, you know, and then on top of that, you find out about your dad and dad is trying to play it off by what, another lie.

40:00 Oh, he's just here. We were discussing business. If you really, if you really wanted to throw him off, you could have said this is the man who's been tracking down Richardson. William might have stopped then and thought about something he might have been like. OK, we'll handle this later. Where the fuck is this man at? It might have curtailed that, but instead you're you're so like up in arms because oh, my son just caught this and now you're trying to you're trying to play it off. We miss tired of y'all lying to him just. Stop lying to him. Yeah, it's just and and you know, in in that regard, to be honest in that regard, that ain't none of Williams business. But him being careless and being out in the open is what is the where the real problem really lies because there ain't none of his business who is daddy's living with. That's his daddy business.

40:56 That's true like. It's just the fact that he just was kissed so careless. I just felt I was so angry and like, but like, I guess the thing about William that is so bothersome is because we know, because we know the whole back story and we know that nobody meant William harm. And it's, I get it from his perspective, he doesn't see it that way, but obviously we do. So it's hard for us to be like, Oh my God, here you go whining again. But I, I do, I do agree that he had every right to be angry at everybody but that. And I also agree that Emirates, I get where Emirates was coming from. I just wish she had not tried to play William. She thought William. She thought William was like, like she said maybe she didn't think he would.

41:41 She didn't know if he was a coward, but she was like, oh, this is somebody I'll be able to easily manipulate. That's a liberal that he's not trying to go back to war, right? You know? Right. Because I I totally get where she's coming from. You know, if everybody found out that Ben was a traitor and all that, her life would have been met. Her life would have been messed up. Her kid forever would have been messed up. Yeah, I mean you. See what happened with Marshall and Fergus just for printing some of the the Patriot stuff, because again, Fergus as a printer, he prints for both sides and was also getting threats from both sides. Yeah, so so I I totally understand why Amaranthus did what she did, but. It's still lies just to get lies. Speaking of him being a printer.

42:31 So one of the things I was going to bring up when I was with Jamie was reminiscing at the end and going through Fergus's life with him. And of course, I was in tears. I was just thinking like, I just wonder how much Jamie feels blame because he taught Fergus this trade and he taught him in the way of like doing the seditious papers. And he taught him all these things. And it was something that, you know, he followed in his footsteps because he was his father, you know? And I just wonder how much of that is Jamie going to hold on to because like when? He warned him about it last time he was there. He.

43:15 Did and it's just like, is Jamie going to like feel that? I kind of feel like when was Fanny when Fanny took brought him to the little spot like he did for her? I was kind of hoping that that maybe help ease that. So maybe they don't go into that, but you know, they love making people carry guilt, you know, on that on. Yeah, yeah, I mean it. I'm so mad that they killed Fergus. And then it's like. I broke my heart. But I like the way that they did it, like Jamie knew something was wrong. Jamie was like, I don't know what it is, but I feel like something's wrong. And then the way that Marsley came in and and she gets out the thing and and she's got her black dress on and they looking at her like what?

44:07 And and it's like you see them scanning for Fergus and he's not there. Girl, when I tell you, I was like, I'm not going to get through the rest of this episode. Then when he's sitting there and he's building Fergus's coffin, the the fact that first of all, we already know what kind of condition Fergus is in because Marcela has already said it. She was like, there's not even, there's not even enough of him left to hold. It's just ashes and bones. And then she probably brought that with her because she said I need to bury my husband. I need to take him home. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

44:49 And then for for Jane. Yeah, I do think Jamie will probably have some guilt about that because even though, yes, Fergus was wrong, Fergus wanted to, you know, support his his family. He wanted to provide for his family and stuff. Jamie, I feel like it's still going to feel a little bit of guilt about that because what was the promise he made to Fergus when he lost his hand? He was like, I'll take care of you for life. So he's probably going to feel like I should have just made him stay on the Ridge and stay on the Ridge. But you know, but Fergus wasn't doing good on and I under you know, he had to let him go, let him learn to thrive, let him learn how to how to make it on his own.

45:30 But he is going to feel a little bit of guilt about that, you know? But oh, this, that just sucks for me because as much as I like seeing the relationship with Marceline and Brianna and how much they've built on that, I don't think we saw enough of Fergus and Marcely. And like, like when Rodger was sitting there on the couch and he was like, I know you just lost your brother. I was like, it feels hard to feel that way because you really don't see Brianna and Fergus one-on-one like that. Like you see the build up between her and Marcely as sisters because again, Marsley was Jamie's stepdaughter.

46:15 But it's but it's like that this whole episode just I was like, what the fuck am I watching? Like again, acting superb. The the emotional notes were hitting the way they were supposed to hit, but I just feel like those were emotional notes we did not need, especially this late into like. We were about to go to this battle or whatever it is. So people are going to die. Somebody's going to die. And whether it's Jamie, whether it's whomever somebody's going to have to die if. Y'all kill Ian, we going to have a. Problem right?

46:56 Let me. OK, because here's the thing. And then now Marsley and her family are back on the Ridge. You know, Ian and Marsley were kind of close. How is Ian going to feel when he comes back and sees that Fergus is gone? Him and Fergus grew up together. Girl, they better not touch. They better not touch weekend. I girl, I would. Especially with the fact that he bringing that extra baby home. Oh my God, I just. They better not touch him. I swear I'm. Like Diana. Diana said they could have if if y'all weren't going to do it the right way, if y'all were going to chicken out, y'all could have just let the the print shop burn and been done with it. It still would have made sense.

47:46 And it was a loss regardless. That was a loss and they would have had no choice but to go back to the Ridge. Right, because again, I know that Marsley was considering, you know, the, the, the, the comps money or whatever, but she's not going to do it because she knows Fergus wouldn't want her to do. It and that's what I was like, so annoyed about because I'm like because I don't know if in the book like, you know, it, they end up using it or whatever that ends up happening or whatever. Because again, Fergus is alive in the books. In the right but like my thing is like why even bring that up if y'all knew y'all was going to kill him? Like it's not good for anybody. It's, it's the whole, it's the whole Jon, Jon Snow is the real Targaryen king with no payoff type thing. Like, OK, Fergus can be this great man and he can have all this stuff and these and then you kill him. Like what's the whole, what was the whole point? What what was the whole point?

48:54 I just yeah. And then for Marcel to be like, what am I going to do without Fergus? And she was like, yeah, I can consider that. I need to be able to take care of my children, go home to the Ridge, you know, your children be taken care of. But everybody could have gone. Y'all could have burned the print shop now. And Fergus could have been like, OK, you know what? Y'all tried to burn me and my kids now. No, it's time to go home. He could have gone back to the Ridge. They could have built him another house. Emma Marsley could have had all the babies they wanted and, and been done with the IT it they. And I think this is something that we discussed with with Stranger Things too, because we're so used to the fact that there has to be a big death.

49:39 There has to be a big emotional whatever that, you know, when, when nobody died in Stranger Things, we were like, this is strange, but OK, I like it. It still made sense. Nobody had to die, even though, you know, technically speaking, we don't know whether or not 11 really did die or not. But still, it's kind of like you don't have to have the big emotional death. You don't have to kill people off in order for the story to make sense or to move forward. They didn't have to kill Fergus off. I mean, understand if, if, if you want to do a death, you don't want it to be the baby. So the the spider man MJ saved, that was great. But you didn't have to kill Fergus. No, you didn't.

50:26 You could have had him leaning over trying to make sure his kids were OK when that when that roof fell over, he could have toppled over. Somebody could have called him. Or he could have grabbed that rope and and and caught himself anything. And then the way they did it was also annoying. It was like, why would you stop to look for Marshall and smile at her instead of getting off the roof you knew was going to collapse, which is the point of why you tried to get your sons off the roof. Nobody's going to do that. That's. I'm sorry. That was just that pause was so ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. I I Fergus should have been hauling ass and he would have known to do that. I think so because I mean think about it. This is not the first print shop that Fergus has seen go up in smoke.

51:16 And not only that, he's always been a kid that knew how to like, you know, maneuver, get in and out, do things. He was a pickpocket. He's smart. Like there's no way that Fergus would have just stood there smiling. On a burning building? No, especially when you knew how fast that fire was spreading. I mean, you literally got up on the roof, saw your kids, turned around and the stairwell was already in smoke. It just, it didn't make sense to me. It really didn't. If it if it was a if you needed to have a death it and it needed to make sense, y'all could have done something else. Fergus did not have to die.

51:59 No. If, if your whole point was that, because again, you're talking about Armory, Christian's death wouldn't have made sense for where y'all were taking the show. So it looks to me like the way y'all are taking the show in the eighth season, y'all are talking about family, you're talking about bringing people together. Here goes Marsley and the kids. They're coming to the Ridge and is about to bring his other son. They're coming to the Ridge. They got to start getting ready to defend the Ridge. You're you're, you're making the whole final season about family. And then you take away the one member who has been with that family the longest. The.

52:47 Mercy business is. Almost the beginning. It makes no sense. Yeah. And that and we didn't need the the pain or we didn't need the depth of like the hurt, because this whole show has been nothing but death and pain and attacks and and trauma. Trauma like this is literally the whole show. So if they did just happen to keep all their children intact and gain some new children, why was that a prop? Like, why was that a problem? We don't, you don't. You didn't. It didn't need to be. It didn't, and honestly, and we have enough. Pain. The show was about to end. That's about pain. It's. Enough pain and like, even with Lord John, do we really need to out him to anybody? I don't feel like that was necessary. And and that's the whole thing.

53:34 So, so the storyline that's happening in the books with Lord John, Lord John is actually again, because, because the whole thing with Richardson and with what may be Rob Cameron, because again, we don't know the full extent of what Rob Cameron can do or what he knows or why he's targeting them and all that other stuff. But it has to do something with the political climate there. I think they're trying to get how how Gray or how Lord, whatever Lord John's brother, he's trying to stop the war. He's over in Parliament, in the books, trying to appeal to them like, hey, we are losing this war and we probably need to go ahead and give it up if they want. If, if, if the colonies want to be separate, just let it go because politically it's not making sense anymore. We are losing too much.

54:37 We are losing ground. And Richardson and his people are trying to. I think they're trying to keep the war going and I know that has something also something to do with slavery and they're like they're trying to make sure the slavery is abolished. I think if I remember correctly, I don't remember, but there's some political stuff going on. So Lord John in the books gets kidnapped because of he's being blackmailed because of his sexual orientation. So at the end of the ninth book, Percy comes to tell William, hey, your dad has been kidnapped, we need to find him.

55:22 And Percy's like, actually trying to help William. And then Percy dies. He accidentally drinks some poison that was meant for somebody else. And so William the at the end of the book, William is leaving to go to the Ridge to ask Jamie for help in finding Lord John. OK. So if you were doing all of that stuff, the whole outing thing would probably be necessary. The way that they did it in the show, it makes no sense. Like what more drama between him and William that they didn't need? No, because William has enough turmoil going on in his life. Why did he need that extra? And then if for whatever reason, again, we only have three episodes left, so somewhere between now and then, he needs to figure out a way to reconcile with Jamie.

56:12 OK, if he goes to the Ridge, if he meets with Jamie or if he goes to make sure that Brianna is OK? Because I also don't like the fact that Brianna left and came to the Ridge and we didn't see anything else with her and William. I don't like that because again, she and William get kind of close in the books. So if he comes to the Ridge have for something to do with Jamie or something to do with Brianna, or he hears something about, oh, there's about to be war in the Backcountry. Oh, my sister is there. Let me. However he gets to the Ridge, how is he going to react once he finds out that Fanny is his niece?

56:57 Jane was his niece and regardless if he didn't know it at the time, that knowledge now that oh here was something else that was kept for me. Which, OK, William wouldn't have any reason to know that he had another sister at this point because if they think that sister is dead and him and Jamie don't even talk, what would be the point of revealing that information to him? That's why like when he left Lord John. I don't know. I'm like OK, where? Is he headed like? Where is he going 'cause everybody's headed. They're they're pulling everybody to the Ridge.

57:37 So where is William headed now? They not to the Ridge, 'cause he's talking about I have no father. I know, but you know, this is, this is. William, he's he's up and he's down. He's high and he cold. He's Katy Perry right now. We don't know where that boy going to end up doing and I just feel like something. I feel like he's. I feel because now. That you said that was a part of the storyline where they he went to Jamie for help. I'm starting to wonder like if they're trying to do something to get him to the Ridge, something to get him to Jamie and then Brianna and Brianna, you know, and maybe that's what they're trying to do. But I just can't imagine like them at this late in the in the season kidnapping Laura John or doing something at this point. So I don't know.

58:23 But then again, if if they do that. If William somehow ends up on the Ridge and then now you got in on the Ridge, him and Rachel coming back, you got Brianna on the Ridge and all the stuff. The thing that makes me mad is it's like what you're saying about the Fraser family is all about blood because now Fergus is not there. And again, Fergus has been with them the longest. Yeah. He has been their child the longest. Longer than Brianna. Yeah. Because Brianna wasn't even conceived when they were already taking care of Fergus. Yeah, You, you get what I'm saying?

59:04 And so. Now. He's gone. You got Brianna. And yeah, technically speaking, you got Marshall up there. But Marshall is also your child. By marriage. By marriage. Yeah. You. You're. Going to have Ian and his. Family. You're going to have, you know, if William ends up coming, it just, it feels so wrong and so out of place because Jamie's going to have all his family except for the one that stuck by him the most. I have a problem with that. I have a real big problem with that. Yeah. That's going to be one of those things that the book. Readers are going to go ham over that. We're going to have to be like, well, yeah, get it to yourselves, writers.

59:52 And and that's what that's what a lot of the discourse. I've seen online people are like, well, you know, especially the book readers, they're like, well, we got Diana's word so we already know this. This ain't the real story. So we don't know what y'all doing over here, OK? Hey, that's the show. But Fergus is not dead to us. He's not you know he's alive and well in the books and he gonna stay alive and well cuz the fuck no. Yeah, but the good thing about the. Rest of the season. Is Diana Gabaldon wrote episode 9 and she I think she consulted on episode 10, so she has something to do with episode 10. She has made it very clear in all the interviews she had nothing to do with this episode period. And you can tell.

1:00:42 You can tell because each even she said. What was the whole point in having William find out about Lord John in that way? No, that's a shock value. Oh. Just for, just for shock value. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, just for shock value because who does that help? Nobody. And. Then like is. It really that y'all? Want William to be this long-suffering character on the show. Like I get it, he's Jamie's son, Jamie has gone through the shits, but the whole point in him not being around William, the whole point in him not claiming William as his son was so that William can have a better life than he did.

1:01:28 And you? Don't really see evidence of that better. Life for William, since we've been introducing to him, tragedy upon tragedy, upon this, upon that, It's just, it makes no again. It makes no sense. Like, yeah, I get it. This is supposed to be a dramatic series. We don't need that much fucking drama. Yeah, Yeah. That's. And I'm sorry, we can't. We can't. Expect William to become a mature, emotionally well balanced young man when he keeps having to deal with all this shit. Yeah, he's.

1:02:10 Definitely not going to mature especially. When you didn't bring him up to deal with. All of this stuff, yeah, you probably live with a silver. Spoon in his mouth. To be, oh, I'm the 9th Earl of Ells mirror. I have these properties. I'm going to do my, my time in the service and then I'm going to go home and I'm going to do whatever. I'm going to find an advantageous marriage and blah blah blah blah blah. You didn't prepare with y'all. Didn't prepare William. For the real, for the real world, and unfortunately. Those lessons have been hard. For him to learn and the hits keep coming, how are we supposed to expect? Him to be a a A.

1:02:53 Happy, well adjusted person. I think the only good thing that has come out of all of this for him is the fact that he has a sister that he actually likes. Yeah, who knows him, what he's been through. And understands where he's coming from. But yeah, this this episode made me so. Mad I I literally like like I said it was emotional. I cried because Fergus has been one of my favorite characters from season 2 from when Roman was playing him. I mean from the cute curly headed little boy to the to the great adult like.

1:03:34 He's one of the best characters. On the show and for you to. Also have him. Gone for a whole season just to bring him back, just to kill him. Just to kill him. So that's, yeah, like that's the other thing. Like they just didn't give them any time. No, just no. Time and Ferguson, Marseille are. Fan favorites. Like if y'all were going to do some fan service, y'all could have done that. Y'all could have let Fergus live. Y'all could have let them go to the Ridge, let them run free, let let the kids play with all the other kids that's on the Ridge. They I'm mad.

1:04:17 I'm mad, that's why it. Was before, before we started recording. Now we were supposed to record an hour before. Dana had not had a chance to watch the full episode yet. And she was like, I'm watching it on my phone so we can talk about it as we go. I said no, you have to watch the episode because I need your genuine reaction. And she was like, no, I should be OK. I don't. You don't mind spoilers? No. Bitch, I need you to go. Watch this show I need your full attention. I need your full attention and. She sent me 5. Voice notes while she was watching this episode and I was like, see? That's why you need. To fully watch it before we start talking about it because I needed you to understand what I was about to do. Because like I said, I had thoughts. I realized the first probably 20 minutes of this recording is nothing but me ranting.

1:05:10 I'm so sorry if y'all got to hear my voice but Oh my God I had like. It was just too much. It was just too much. Yeah, I was so pissed. And I was like, oh, I cannot wait for us to talk about this episode. We need to do it quickly because what did I just watch? All I have to say is we. Have three episodes left for the entire show. I need the writers to. Get it right episode #9.

1:05:51 I'm not worried about the OG wrote it. I'm I'm not worried about episode 9. I'm not worried about episode 10 much because yes, she has something to do with it. But again, she has always been very good about the show. Was the show the books of the books? You know, she was like because somebody asked her on her Facebook page. They were like, is Faith alive in the book? She was like, no, no. It doesn't even make sense. Anyway, we I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse. I need them to get their shit together. I don't need any more surprises. Y'all have done your big death.

1:06:33 We don't need no more. We don't need no more of our people dying before the end of this this show. It's not necessary. We don't need the shock value. We don't need the emotional. You know it. We're already emotional. The show was about to end. We're good, just so they know. They said 28 people. Die. In this upcoming skirmish, and one in the 28 better not be nobody from the phrase family. That's all I got to say, Damon says. He's supposed to be one of them, but. If y'all want to talk about this, oh, oh, we brought a baby back from the dead hours after she was still born, then yeah, Claire better do some healing because no, we we're not finna.

1:07:17 We are not about to end this show with the death of that Jamie Frazier. I know Michelle has been fighting for her notebook. Notebook. We don't need no. 20 years, another 20 years and then they can have their they can skip forward another 20 years, they can have their notebook, they can, it can be but see them die, they can be on the. Ridge with their family and that's all I need to see. They can, they can. They can cut it out there. I don't need to see them die. I feel like Fergus died. That's all. That's all the death I need this season. Oh, that makes me so mad. Just think about it. I had to eat some chocolate to get my serotonin back up. Girl, I was so down. Girl.

1:07:59 I was like, oh this is bad. I was too mad. I was too mad but OK, I think I'm. I think I'm OK now I've. I've gotten WOOSA, I won't say I've gotten all my anger. Out because. I think if I watch this episode again at any time, I'm going to be pissed. I'm going to be pissed when I think about it. And of course, you know, the cast members have been posting their tributes to Cesar and Tiff Ferguson. I'm just like, what? I can't. No, I don't like it. I don't like it anyway. In that, do we have any other things we want to say about this atrocious episode?

1:08:51 I mean I. It's just they. They could have. They could have did something else. They they could think I would say that I actually. Like was the fact that they finally got to like get Emery this to give her truth because I didn't trust her and with for good reason, but at least her reason. Honestly, I can't even lie. I ain't mad at her because when she told Laura John, what would you do? I I ain't nothing. I wouldn't do so much. What would you do with this son was at home. I was like real right there. Like I would sell whatever. I would do whatever to make sure my kid is not hungry. And I was just like, OK girl, because at first I thought it was some other scheme, but I'm sorry children, your love of your child, I'm sorry.

1:09:40 And she was like, I tried to talk. I tried to talk him out of rebellion. I tried to talk him out of it and William was like, he still cares for you. She was like not not enough, not enough, not enough. For you to turn your coat when you got a child. Here, Yeah. You going to bring scandal on mine? And I mean, it's it's almost similar to the women on the Ridge with their husbands doing what they did to Jamie. They're like, so you going to make a stupid decision and cause us to be straight? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So yeah, I don't. I don't. Blame her at all. Yeah, I just, again, I just wish her plan didn't come at Williams expense, because now he's doubly hurt.

1:10:24 Yeah, because now he's been betrayed by you and by his cousin. His favorite cousin? So again, William has been through. Enough y'all leave him alone. Let this man find some happiness within the next three episodes. That's all I got to say, OK. That's not happening, but. That's all I got to say. You got any? Final thoughts about this? Episode No ma'am, I'm clear. All heart to mind. Clear. I ain't going angry. Angry. There we go. I was going to say. I I'm not going to say I'm. Clear. I'm angry but I think I've gotten the majority of my feelings out.

1:11:08 So 3 episodes left. And then we'll figure out where we're going from there. But. Now that's it for our show. You can find us online at. Www.phantomhybrid.com We are on social media, on all the social media at Phantom Hybrid. You can chat with us on our Discord channel, you can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.