The Last of Us Season 2 Episode 7 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #359

0:25 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I'm here with Anthony and we are discussing the season 2 finale of The Last of Us. I knew it was coming. I knew it was going to happen. I still was not expecting it. Jesse is dead. I just Jesse. Is dead. I you know, I knew it. Was. Coming. I knew it was coming 'cause we, we talked about it. We were like, either Dina's gonna die, Jesse is gonna die, both of them are gonna die, but at at least one of them is gonna die. I wasn't expecting it to come the way that it did. Like I literally jumped in my seat when it happened. I have one little problem, 1 little nitpick. You're barged into a room not knowing the situation. Yeah, I, I was, yeah.

1:22 Yeah. I mean, you heard that there was a struggle, so you feel that there was something going on. And I I thought about that when they was running. I was like, wait, what do you. I was. Like you don't even know what's going on, No. You don't know how many people are in there. Nothing. Nothing. Just crack the door, see what's happening. Right, right. I just. I actually get in, the doors are barricaded. But you know what, that's their city. So she may, she may know of another way to get in there, that that's her city. You know, we talked about the fact that they were in that place and nobody's come looking.

2:07 No one's come checking, You know, they, they have the place lit up, which we talked about. They've got the lights on. So it's obvious to some, somebody's been in that place. And then because of the fact that when Ellie came back, it was raining, she may have left the trail. She may have left the trail of footprints. I, I don't know. I mean I have. Questions. It's possible she probably knocked on the door. Hell. So I, I don't know, I mean, but yeah, I, I was, I was expecting it, not expecting it the way it was.

2:52 She had to shoot him in the face, but. Being the senior of Mass, he barred me. See he bars the door. She's shot like, see even the world what was coming. But here's the crazy thing, because if Ellie had been first, she would have missed. Yeah, because Jesse's so much taller than than Ellie. And I was sitting here looking at this, this scene, and I was like, there's so many different ways they could have approached that one. Jesse could have, like you said, they could have taken it slow. They could have tried to assess the situation. Because she didn't even have to know that they were in there. She didn't know.

3:33 Tommy would've told her. Tommy wouldn't have told her. And when when Jesse got shot and Ellie kind of ducked up under the thing. I think and and I I'm saying this thinking that OK, Ellie would've been emotionally closed off. She could've like maybe reached up and shot her, but she like, she literally just had this bonding moment with Jesse where they seem to have kind of could all of the anger and stuff, maybe behind them or maybe just pushed it to the side for a minute. And then now he's dead. After you've already made the decision. OK, we're, we're just going to go home. We're going to do fuck all this.

4:19 I, you know, I have to make peace with the fact that Abby still gets to live and blah, blah, blah. And then he's dead. And I think at that point Ellie was just kind of like, I'm done. I'm, I'm so done, I'm done because there's so much, there's so much going on with this, but I just, I had to get that out 'cause I'm like, I, I, I knew it was coming. I just wasn't expecting the way that it happened and the the unexpected violence with it. Like I, I kind of figured it would go down something like the way the Seraphites do it, or maybe it would have been a a face off. But just yeah anyway.

5:05 Almost like random and senseless. Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because even Abby didn't know who was coming through that door. It could have been one of her people. It it could have been, but and, and she didn't, I don't even think she knew that Tommy was there with other people because she thought Tommy was the one that killed Owen and. Yeah, he killed all my friends. He. Killed my friends and. She's like, I killed him. Actually, I did that, but OK, let let's let's go back to the beginning. Let's talk about when Jesse was alive, because we got a lot of him in this episode, which should have told me that he was probably gonna die because we got a lot of story and, and background and exposition with him and Ellie's characters. And we got to see kind of the different ways that they approach their situations.

6:02 And also, you know, we see that Jesse is very observant. Jesse is also very mature, and Jesse also he knows how to kind of compartmentalize things and say, OK, look, we're not going to talk about this. We can do this, we can do that. You get a lot of Jesse in this episode, which should have told me that he was not going to make it. It should have told me that he was not going to make it. I like how he's very self aware and even he knows that he's supposed to be the leader of Jackson one day. Like not just on the council. He's like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be the leader. Yeah, I mean, like I said, Ellie said that a few episodes ago. She was like, yeah, we know you're going to be the one to take over eventually, which now he's not, but. No, he's not.

6:52 But I, I, the self aware thing is something that I think we really don't see too much in people his age because he's only 25. You know, a lot of times people that age, they're still trying to find themselves, they're still exploring things. They're still a lot of times still out doing stupid stuff because they're at an age where they can do the stupid stuff and it not have many long term consequences. Jesse is completely not like that. You know, he totally understood what was going on with Ellie and Dina probably before they did, you know, And even when Dina's trying to come to him, she was like, look, I don't know what to say about what's going on with us. He was like, look, I, I love her, but I don't love her the way you love her.

7:43 Like, I can see that and she's just looking at him like, again, she thought she was hiding it. Well, no you weren't Ellie, You weren't. It was obvious. But I like the fact that he's self aware of that. And he didn't try to make her feel bad about it 'cause he really could have. He could have made that whole situation very uncomfortable for all of them. But he had the the mindset to say, OK, you know what? I know that they feel this way about them. And I know that I don't feel this way about her, even though, yes, I care about her. And oh, yeah, by the way, I noticed certain things. I know she's pregnant. He was like Dina, who has never turned down a free drink ever in her life, tells me no to alcohol when I'm about to push an arrow through her leg. Yeah, I I already know this.

8:33 But he he still was kind of guessing. Yeah, I think he he figured, but he just needed her to. Yeah. She was like, you were guessing shit. Like, yeah, I I like how with the seriousness of the episode, they still injected a little bit of humor. Not enough to be in inappropriate, but enough to kind of say, OK, you know what, let's lighten this moment just a little bit because there's so much heaviness going on with this episode, with, you know, at the beginning of the episode, you have Jesse and Dana because she has the arrow on her leg. He's trying to push it out. They're having a conversation. And it's like she is she's trying to be assertive, but at the same time, she's not sure how to handle this situation because when she left, they were still kind of sort of messing around.

9:25 And now all of a sudden she finds herself kind of sort of in a relationship with Ellie. And also she's now made this discovery that she's pregnant with his baby and she doesn't know how to tell him. And it was very awkward, but at the same time, it was very, it was done very matter of fact fact on both of their parts. He's like, hey, I just need to get this through. This is going to hurt, blah, blah, blah. And she's, you know, saying the same things. And it's, it's a lot. And then, of course, Ellie comes in and she's not paying Jessie any attention. She wants to go make sure that Dina is OK. So she does.

10:13 Dina realizes she has blood on her back, tells her to take her shirt off. And you can tell like you can see she's got bruising like she's been, she's not hurt. So you can see the bruising, you can see scratches. And I know some of that is probably from the clickers. Some of that is probably I can't remember if she and. Norris The stalkers, yeah. The soccer, the stalkers, I can't remember. I don't think she and Nora actually got into like a physical altercation because they were kind of standing far from each other. She just threw the chemicals on her. Yeah. Yeah, she ran.

10:57 Did she jump down the elevator shaft? I know Nora. Nora did. Nora did, and then, well, she, she jumped on the elevator and then the elevator fell. So I think she did fall on the elevator. So she does have the bruises and everything. And as Dina is trying to tend to it, she's asking her. So are you going to tell me what happened? And let me say the very cold and detached way that she described her encounter with Nora Tedena, it was it was kind of uncomfortable to see because again, you do realize just how far gone she was at that moment.

11:46 But also, again, I'm going to say I like being right because she said that she did not kill Nora. She left her. She was like, yeah, she's dead. Anyway, So just, you know, and and she says it again later on when she confronts Owen and Mel, she was like, I'm not like you guys, but you, you ain't too far off. You're not far. From me, I think this is still part of of the breaking that cycle of violence from Joel, because Joel would have killed her. Yeah, you know, And I think it's the part of her that's trying not to be like Joel. Yeah, but I think also too, again, like I said, I feel like her leaving her alive was the worst fate because it is because for what you did to her, you you basically beat the shit out of her, probably broke both of her legs, probably broke some lungs. So if you'd have killed her, you'd have put her out her misery.

12:51 And I don't think Ellie had that in mind. Ellie was like, Oh no, I'm going to make you suffer. So you've already been infected and now I'm going to leave you down here infected and half and half broken. That's going to be your punishment. But then when Dana was like, she got what she deserved. And Ellie said, but did she? And then she turns around and she tells Dina the truth about why they're there, you know? Yeah. Joel, what did she say? Before I came to Jackson, there was a hospital in Salt Lake City. They were going to make a cure out of me, but it would have meant that I would have died.

13:33 And when Joel found that out, he killed everybody. Everybody. Everybody in the entire hospital, including the Doctor Who was Abby's father, he did it all to save me. And Dina's reaction, I think like I know she was shocked and you could kind of see her disconnect a little bit just in the way that she, she, her facial expression changed because it was something that she needed to kind of. Well, she had to process. It she had to process it and then she was like, we need to go home. And I understand her reaction, but I also feel like her reaction wasn't fair to Ellie.

14:27 Boy, it's not even. It's not even consistent to Dean to Dora's character. To to her character and not only. Because she literally just told her. Yeah, right. She literally just told her. It didn't matter what he did it. Didn't matter what that person did. If if someone killed my family, I don't care what they did to to deserve it or I don't care what they did to bring that out on. I would have chased them down forever. Yeah. And then for you to turn around and have that reaction, Joe literally did what you said you would do. Joe was protecting her. And now she is doing the same. You know, Ellie is doing the same thing. Like, oh, I thought he did wrong, but that doesn't make what they did to him right.

15:14 And now I got to go. I got to go. I fix it is not the word. But I I I'm on a revenge warpath. Yeah, But this is this is one of the problems with the show, the internal consistency, because as a writer, you might as well have not had Dina have it. Dina, Dora have that conversation with her. Because this reaction would make sense if you never had that conversation where, you know, it didn't matter what he did. He didn't deserve that. You know, this is what happened to my family. I would have haunted that person down, too. I mean, it's literally the same thing. So I kind of feel like one of the reasons why they did do that, I think for a lot of us saying one thing and believing one thing is a thing.

16:09 But when you're actually faced with the reality of something kind of proving that statement and you're you're having to deal and process with the the the the reality of what that situation is, I think we realized that maybe that's not exactly how we felt. And I think that's kind of illustrating that. Like, yeah, Dina could say, OK, yeah, I don't care what he did, he didn't deserve that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I would have chased. I would have chased him down. I would have haunted him down forever. And I would have done this. I would have done that. Yeah. We can go and hunt her out. I'm with you. I can go, you know, kill her with you. And then when you find out, OK, So what really happened is he actually did do something that could be considered worthy of the revenge that Abby took. And yet I'm, I'm bringing you on this journey to go get revenge on her and possibly putting us in danger because of that, that might give someone pause to be like, OK, do I really feel this way?

17:14 Because it's, well, no. She seemed like she did because she said it very passionately and Ellie was giving her an out to say, you know what, we don't have to do this, we can go back. And she convinced Ellie to continue. Yeah, and and I get that and I, I agree with you, but I'm I'm just wondering if they're doing it to kind of show like again, the complexity of having. No, no, no, no. Am I giving the riders too many you? Giving them too much credit, too much credit, too much credit. They they messed up OK, because they wanted the story to be a certain way. They wanted to give, they wanted to give Dora a little bit more depth and a reason for continuing. Yeah, because I also feel this way when she made that statement to Ellie, when she said I don't care what my family member would have done to to them.

18:10 Again, I have a feeling like she knew that whatever it was that happened, that they came for Joe for a reason. Because again, you don't just randomly inflict that kind of harm and violence on somebody that's not personal. If it was just a random person, one, they wouldn't have left Dina alive. If this was just somebody who just wanted that kind of violence, that kind of whatever, somebody who might have been, let's say, a serial killer or someone who had that kind of just random violent nature, that's one thing. But they did this to him and left you alive and were was compassionate enough, considerate enough, whatever to say, hey, OK, we're just going to knock you out so you don't have to witness this, but this is about to happen. She knew that was something personal. I think maybe she could have been trying to see if Ellie knew when she made that statement.

19:13 Like if Ellie was going to say something because you saw Ellie's face when she said Ellie was like, well, and she just didn't say anything at that. The, the, the, the whole problem I have with this discussion, not you and me, but this discussion in general, is that it's easy to it's easy to say, well, Abby came after him because he killed her father, right? No, it was actually a father saving the life of his daughter. He didn't kill all those people out of malice or out of spite. He killed him to save Ellie. And if Dora can't get that part.

20:00 That part of that, he wasn't trying to kill Abby's father out of meanness or fight or malice. He literally asked him to let her go. Yeah, he did. Right, because he didn't kill the nurses, did he? Did he? No. No. If her father hadn't let Ellie up, he probably would still be alive. Yeah, but he said no, and he came out with a knife. So you're dead. The nurses didn't come after him with a knife. No. So I know this I'm, I'm doing, I'm trying. I'm filling in a lot of gaps. I don't want to say gaps, but I'm I'm adding a lot of additional stuff, which that's what you would have to do to make up for Dora's change in her position because Dora was very passionate about it didn't matter what he did. I'm going to go on this ride with you. So you want to go or not?

21:04 So as far as we know, that was Dina's, Dina Dora's position her. Name is Dina Dora. So now Dora knows. OK, so Abby had a reason. Abby always had a reason, and you knew this already. Whatever Abby's reason was, you knew it was personal, so it shouldn't matter whether or not he killed her father or not. You didn't even know that. Now you know the circumstances, but why would you change your mind? Like, why would you all of a sudden be different now because there's a change of circumstances? Right, because it died. You were in that position and you had to go and save Ellie. Would you ask her best friend or ask her love interest or as whatever?

21:48 Would you go and do it? Yeah, you probably would have done. And you would, right? Yeah, Jesse would. And if you were on that table, Jesse would have done the same thing to save you. So that's that's, that's the one thing that's something that we kind of want to have if we want characters to have the consistency of character consistency in their internal decisions. That wasn't That should not have been enough information to make her change her position. Yeah, and I. Because you still have to take, you still have to process the fact that she just told you the. Proceeded. Were going to kill me and when he found out. He saved me.

22:33 Yeah, right. It's as simple as that. That's not in the few dollars in Blackwell, I guess I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, that's not what you were saying yesterday. Yeah, right. And I don't know, I, I guess maybe I don't know, maybe she's upset about the fact that Ellie didn't tell her from jump because she did ask the question. She was like, did you know who they were? And Ellie was like, no, I didn't. I didn't know at the time, but I knew what he did. But even that I feel like. It's still not enough because she black. I just found out the night before he got killed. She never to to. Tell nobody or to tell friendly. Just had this conversation.

23:15 He just confirmed for me what happened and then. You in the world would not and you in the world would not have a relationship. And does the fact that does that change anything really? No, because Ellie was still going to go. The only difference would have been you would have went with her. I mean, let's let's have some let's just have some consistency of character, that's all. Yeah. That that was one of the other things I had a problem with. Everything else was fine, but the fact that she was just. So he's like, yeah, we should go home. Really. Oh, now, because you were pregnant yesterday when you said let's keep going. Yeah, you might. You might die too.

23:55 You're right. But you know what? I will say this too, things could have changed for her because of the fact that Jesse and Tommy are now there. Maybe she was like, OK, if it's just us, but now we're putting up. Now other people are being put in danger. Yes, I know I'm given the writers more credit than they desire. I'm just looking at things from all different angles, you know? Now you, your baby daddy is here. Now Tommy is here, they've come to get you out of this. And then not only this, you walked into a whole other war that you had no idea what's going on and it's dangerous.

24:38 So I don't know, maybe. She no, no, she knew they. She knew about that already too, because they stumbled in the building with all the people hanging up with the guts out. Yeah, so. But what I'm saying is they didn't know that when they left, you know, when she, when she left. And she was with Yeah, when she. Was with. So they've known since they've been in Seattle, they've known that there was an issue between those two groups. Yeah, but I don't. But I'm trying to think she didn't, she didn't know about the hanging stuff when she made that speech. So maybe they. Found all the bodies and dead children. Yeah, that's. That's enough information right there that this is a situation that might be a little volatile, maybe a little bit.

25:25 They kill the children. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know but. Moving on. Moving on. Because Dora Dora got some problems. You need to consult boots or something. But anyway, Dora can't do anything because she has a hole in her legs. So she hasn't stayed at the theater while Ellie and Jesse go to look for Tommy. And this is again, the start of the, the kind of, I don't know, friendship redemption tour between Jesse and Ellie because they do have a lot of conversations about certain things.

26:07 And they they do kind of go at it because Jesse does have this, I guess he does have this attitude of this viewpoint of himself that in a sense he's better than Ellie. He does look at Ellie as being reckless, as being selfish, as, you know, only thing about her herself, which I mean, yes, she is, but at the same time, I feel like she's she's not as well. She's she's doing this for someone else. Granted, is is is part of, you know, it's a big part for her, but she's also doing it because what happened to him, she felt like wasn't fair. You know, it doesn't make it right, but I don't think it's completely selfish, just like I didn't think it was completely selfish when he killed everybody he killed in the hospital. Yes, it was for him.

26:59 Like I don't want to lose another daughter. But at the same time, he was doing it to save her. And granted, it's too late. It's too late to save him here, but at least you know I, I don't. Know we can, we can, we can argue about the selfish part, but we're not going to argue about the reckless part because she is. Reckless. No, she is reckless. I will give. I will. Give her. And I think that might be Jesse's main problem with her. She is. You can be selfish, but you don't have to be reckless. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, there was a question that you raised in the last episode when we got to see the flashbacks of Joel and Ellie. And we were talking about the different skills that he didn't teach her. And I thought about it when she first approached him with wanting to go on patrol for her.

27:50 I think it was her 16th birthday or her 15th birthday. He literally said to her, use this chance to enjoy being a kid. I don't think he taught her some of that stuff because he wanted to give her a chance at being just normal for a little while. Because again, this is someone who has grown up always thinking that she was going to have to be the savior of the world. She was going to have to do this. She didn't get those regular experiences, even being brought up as a soldier. Now. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Uh, uh, wait. He went to go get her on her 19th birthday and was like, OK, well this is a good time for us to start. And then he took her out on patrol. He was trying to show her the ropes and then all the shit with Eugene happened and then their big blow up and then they didn't talk for nine months.

28:44 So I don't think it was that he didn't. 2 Two things. Two things. One, teaching someone how to do a patrol in this situation is a different skill set than going across the country in survival mode. And it's just the two of you, right? So my statements was about the things that her because at the time he she wasn't a child. She he wasn't, she wasn't a daughter figure or a surrogate daughter for him at the time. She was cargo, but he needed to get someplace.

29:27 He's the type of person he's going to make use of this extra pair of eyes. So there are things that he would have taught her how to do stealthy, how to scout ahead in places where he couldn't go. And how did that? How to read a math? Those are the things that he would have taught her on the way, and these are those are the skills that she, this version of Ellie is lacking. But I'm telling you, I think she knows that. Stuff, but she couldn't triangulate. She didn't know how to triangulate anything. I think that's something. A little more. That's something a little more complex and something he may not have thought to to teach her because on their way back and, and I mean, we talked about this first, the first season they had no opposition or anything blocking them on the way to or on the way from, not that we've seen.

30:20 So they're I don't think, but I would think after. The situations they were in like in Philadelphia and then later that they there, he would be like, you know what, I need to prepare this person if we have these situations again. You know what I'm saying? Teaching how to shoot right, that was something that he was taught her on the way. So there. I'm just saying they are without. I'm trying to look at this from perspective and not the game. I'm just think, trying to think of it in the reality type of situation, you know, licking that from all angles, which is, you know, your thing.

31:04 There's there's she was old enough, she already had training with guns and all that stuff. He wouldn't have had to fill in that much more for them to be in a survival mode. Yeah, they're going to be gaps where they didn't run into anything, but I refuse to believe they they had to stop in places to get supplies. Like they didn't have enough food and stuff to make it all the way on their own. Yeah, so they had to go and scout buildings and kill clickers looking for food, looking for supplies, finding a place to sleep at night because you can't always sleep outside. Yeah, based. On the weather.

31:45 So I'm just saying this version of Ellie seems if you just go back to that moment when Dora walks in there in the garage and it's like, where you going to go? You don't even have on the right shoes, you know what I mean? Do you even know how you're going to get there? You don't. You can't even read a map. All these things that she's saying is things that would have been basic, that she would have learned on the way. To Salt Lake City. From Boston or wherever they were. Those are things that she would have already had this for Notch. And they've established that she's not dumb. I don't know why they make it like she's supposed to be stupid. She's not, you know, so she should.

32:27 She picks up on things very quickly. Yeah. She does. She does. So I I don't like, I don't want to say I don't like. The writers are not being consistent with the situation and with her character. That's another problem I have with this show. Just be consistent. All the other things they could have done, they could have done without it. Making it look like Joel taught her absolutely nothing during however long it took for them to walk across the country. That means he just walked in silence talking about guitars. I mean, is that all he did? You know what I'm? Saying. Because he was expecting to have, what was her name? Tess.

33:10 He was supposed to have tests with him. Oh yeah. Tess, she would have. Basically been a fill in for tests, so he would have had to teach her a lot of things that she wouldn't have known on this road that they were travelling on. OK, Yeah. Especially during the times. When there wasn't anything going on, right? And. And he didn't like talking about personal stuff, so he's going to talk about cleaning your gun, making sure the bullets are not wet. You know what I'm saying? Things like that that we see her do. Yeah. We see her that. Yeah. Right, he would have taught. Her those things that and now doing the patrol, that's something different.

33:51 Yeah. So I I understand that part. But and and now he was in a safe place. He has a different kind of relationship with her. He wants her to be a child. Enjoy, enjoy being a kid, you know, But for her, that's not easy to switch back off when that's not what we were doing. That wasn't the circumstances of our relationship. And now you want to be dad and you want to be a kid. That's not how it's been for a couple of years. You know what I'm saying? So I'm, I know that was a lot to say, but you know, it's, you know, Hanukkah. That's one of the things I do love about you is that you do give writers a lot of credit.

34:32 I mean I try like. I say I try to look at things from different perspectives because. Some things do make. Sense some things don't and when when you have a characters who. Who behave in certain. Ways and then all of a sudden they behave in ways that are not characteristic of them. I try to figure out OK, So what is different? You know what could be the mindset because even with me there are certain things that I will do consistently, but if there's something that kind of throws that off, I will maybe do something uncharacteristic to kind of compensate for that. So sometimes I look at characters and try to think that too like, OK, so maybe there's a reason why she doesn't know how to triangulate.

35:19 I mean, one of the things that they said in that episode when she and Dana were doing all of that, she was like, you know I'm not I'm not schooled. Well, you know I I wasn't a bookish person. I I didn't take the studies well, I'm not that I don't think she's you know, you can be smart but not be book smart. You can have a lot of common sense. You can be street smart. You can have, you can pick up on other things besides what you pick up reading a book. And that was something that she stated very clearly. So I, I try to take all those things into consideration too. You know, sometimes reading the map, that's a little bit too much like school work.

36:03 She might have been like, OK, you know what, as long as I know how to get from A to B, I'm good. But maybe she's never been in a situation where she had to triangulate and try to, you know, figure out how. I give you that the Army is running. And you know how they're, I'll give you that. However, however, Federer was training kid soldiers, they were going to spend some time maybe not triangulating, but reading a map. Yeah. That's that's a that's. A basic thing, a soldier I. Think she. Can. Just this version, I don't know. I don't know reading a reading.

36:44 A map figuring out how to get from point A to point B. That's not that hard doing the other stuff because what Dina was doing was she was following the patterns that the army was going and she was looking at the map and figuring out, OK, they're avoiding this place, they're not going here. And there's this whole warehouse that that's what she was triangulating like OK, so it I'm. Fine with that. So yeah. It seems like. Though Ellie just wouldn't. Know how to do that? I was thinking. This Ellie, unless you told her what direction to go, she wouldn't know where to go, you know? Yeah. The word asked.

37:25 Her. Do you even know where you're going? I'll figure it out. No, She. Said she said she was going to go northwest, northwest. Right, but she didn't. She just. Didn't she wasn't telling her like a specific path? So, yeah, and I mean, Dan was like, OK, well, and, and also she's probably been on more patrol so she would know the safer places to go 'cause Ellie wasn't allowed on patrols up until she turned 19. And then remember, Joe had took her off patrol. So yeah, anyway, we're getting in the weeds. We can disagree to disagree that maybe, I don't know, maybe Ellie might be a little bit more. OK.

38:10 Anyway, going back to the whole Ellie and Jesse thing. So Speaking of. Jesse, Sir, why are we walking around in broad daylight out the open? I know their forces are probably dealing with other stuff, but you still got to take a little bit of care. Yeah, when you're moving. From. They almost got caught, you know, standing out in the open. I was wondering that. Too. I was like y'all aren't scaling the walls, y'all are. Or at least hugging the. Walls, Right, Right. Or at least hugging. You, that's what. I meant. That's what I meant. To say, but yeah, just like, you know, you're just going straight down the street like y'all have a regular.

38:55 Conversation talking like no one could be listening. So whatever, but that's been. A That's been a complaint that we've had the entire season at least. At least they've been consistent. How you doing that? But then when they are. Almost caught. It's because one of the Seraphite kids is being cornered by some of the Wolf soldiers and Jesse and Ellie run into a garage and they hide behind some trash cans and they get to witness this thing. Now Ellie wants to go and save the Seraphite kid. She's like, no, we're not gonna let these people bullet. Because in her mind still, she's thinking that the wolves are the bad guys because she's seen the the first set of Seraphites that were killed. And then she's recently seen the ones that were kind of, you know, just kind of dumped up under the wall. So I think in her mind, she's still saying, OK, yeah, we saw this, that the Seraphites strung their soldiers up, but the wolves were doing stuff first.

40:01 I think that's what she's thinking in her mind. So she's like, OK, we need to go save this kid. And Jesse is like, no, no. And he tells her, he said this is their war. This is not something that we're involved in. I'm not about to die for them. My whole goal is for us to go find Tommy, go get Dina and get the fuck out. Let them handle their own shit. I need to worry about y'all and what's back home. He's like, yeah. They gonna kill this kid, but that ain't got nothing to do with this. And that's a big. Big problem, I think for Ellie because one, like she said, he's a kid, This guy that they literally, they stripped him up his clothes and then drunk him through the street to take him back to the Wolf Help headquarters or wherever they're gonna go.

40:56 But then they have this conversation, this big argument, because they realize that here on the radio that there's a sniper who was shooting at the wolves. But they realize he's not a Scar, he's not a Seraphy. They're like, he's unidentified. So they automatically assume it's Tommy. They're like paper. Oh, yeah. OK, so. The step back, can we go back a little bit? Yeah, I. Yeah, I want to say. I think I think I figured out. I think I figured out. What's happening with Ellie on the show versus Ellie in the video game? Because in the video game as a player character Ellie is a problem.

41:41 Like stealth Ellie in the game. 2-3 Wolf. Soldiers, she had taken them out and you would have been fine, but I think they're trying to characterize her as more of AI don't want to say humanist, but she's more thoughtful and more sensitive about things because Alien. The game would have been like Jessie. I'm not getting involved in that because we have a task we need to accomplish so. Or as a player. You might decide I don't want that to happen. I could go over there and kill them and help the certified kid go, right, So you can make that decision.

42:25 You can make that choice. That wouldn't have been a problem, and Jessie would just have to go along with you. OK, OK. Whatever. But I think they really, it seems like a lot of the things that's been happening with Ellie, her decisions, the way she's acting is making her more human. Does that make sense? Yes. And. And I think a lot of that has to do with something GAIL said. Is that her name? GAIL, when she was talking to Tommy at the softball field, she said, you know, she is on the path. It's not the path that Joel set her on. It's she's on her own path. And that path.

43:06 Is like I said, it's about breaking the cycle of violence, right, right. And so instead of getting getting her there at the end, we're seeing her fighting against it this whole time. Everything she's doing is trying to break away from what we would think Joel would have instilled in her. So she's making her own choices, her own decisions. And when I look at it from that perspective, a lot of the stuff that she does and the decisions she makes, they do kind of make sense. It kind of works because if you want to make her more human, you know, because even Jesse, you may think he is, but he's being very cold and calculated about what they're supposed to be doing, right? He has an objective.

43:53 What's going on here? That kid that has nothing to do what they're doing, and she's like, no, we need to do something about this because we just can't let them kill this kid. It doesn't matter that he's a Seraphite. It doesn't matter that they're wolf. They as a person, as a human being, we should not be letting that happen, right? Right and. When you take that perspective and look back on the whole season, a lot of the things she does kind of make sense from that perspective. She's more human, she's more emotional, she's more feeling, you know, whatever. I just wanted to say that before we got into Tommy being a menace, all these trained soldiers with his one rifle, right?

44:36 But. Also, just going back to what you were just saying, if you think about the way that Jesse kind of views things, it's it's almost like it's the US versus them type thing. And in a lot of ways, I think he's like Joel in that sense. If you think about Joel that last time we saw him with Maria when they were bringing in the refugees, he was like, yeah, we might need to stop doing that. Like we, we can't take care of other people. We can't take care of our own, you know, if if our resources are depleted, we don't have and and we don't have enough to feed our own people or take care of our own people, shelter our own people, how can we take care of other people? And I think. Jesse has a lot of that.

45:17 Mindset as well. Jesse's like, you know what, We came into their territory. They got some kind of beef going on, then I got shit to do with us. All I care about is my people. And then also he has the recent knowledge that he's about to be a father. He's like Dina said, she can't die. Not that she doesn't want to die. She can't die. She's And, he says. He says I can't die even I can't die either. I'm. About to be a father, so now he said that. He said that I think he was a dead man. I felt it too, but I was like and a lot. Of it has to do with the community conversation she's like fuck communities. This is about. Human.

45:58 It's, it's about being people, being human. They made me think of The Walking Dead again, and you know what? I was. Just about to say that too. Not just The Walking Dead, but any type of dystopian story that we've heard because it's always about OK, well, we need to preserve us. Fuck them. Other people like Color Games. And that's history. For themselves. And that's what. Contributes to a lot of the conflict because it's every man or every group for themselves. And then it gets to a point where it's like, Oh well you guys have the electricity and y'all have a whole town over here. Well guess what? Maybe we can come and take that from you instead of it being a collaborative thing, you know, and and Ellie says that point Blake to him. She was like, you think you're so much better than me because you fight for community and you know, those are your people and that's who you're protected.

46:53 She was like, well, let me tell you something about community. I had to watch my community get beaten to death in front of me while I watched. She was like, so fuck you and your community. I'm going to go handle this Abby thing. You can go do whatever, you know, And I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that she didn't want to go help Jesse. I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that she didn't want to go help Tommy. In her mind, like she told Jesse, she said I know what he's capable of. I ain't worried about him, right? I'm just worried about. Him, but this Tommy going to be all right. Right. But this bitch over here and she said that she was like, Tommy will want me to go handle that. I'm going to go do.

47:37 This and I don't know if I feel like. Especially now. After watching this episode, I don't know if I feel like that's really what Tommy would have wanted. Just because going back to that, breaking generational curses and breaking those curses, I know I've been saying I want to see that version of Tommy. The whole season I'm. Like, yes, I need to see the Tommy that we talked about at the beginning of the show where he was like, yeah, me and my brother, we did some bad things. I want to see that Tommy. But at the same time, the Tommy that we saw at the end of the episode, because yes, we finally did get to see Tommy. But he, you know, when everything happened, he basically looked at Ellie and was like, are you going to be able to make your peace with the fact that Abby is still alive, 'cause we need to go home.

48:27 That was his and and so. Let's talk about internal consistency of characters, OK? Tommy, you off? Trying to find Ellie, you know, you looking around, you sneaking around, being off stealthy. Oh, let me pull up my sniper rifle and start shooting people. I would like to see what caused that to happen. Yeah. Because if he's. Sniping. That means he's at a distance, yeah. That doesn't sound like he's. Looking for Ellie or? And you're going to give. The writers, a lot of credit.

49:07 No, no, no, because I was. Going to say depending on where, because I don't remember what location he was at, but if the if the wolves that he saw were getting too close to the theater, like maybe he had eyes on the theater and he knew Dina was in there, maybe he's like, OK, let me keep them away from there. Or he could have been no wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, why would now they all of a sudden they want to be heading towards the theater? They got shit going on on the perimeter with the with the with the Cera fights. Well, I mean, we don't know. Because they could be patrolling. I mean, we we did say that was weird that no one was patrolling that area, that no one came and checked the theater, especially considering you had that whole horde of clickers in that subway station and you had people down there.

49:55 Like you didn't send people to come and look. Yeah, let's, let's, let's. Not talk about that because they didn't want to talk about it, right? You had the whole squad go missing and you didn't bother to go figure out what happened. Just saying. So because when that squad got down there, because we were going to go back, when the squad got down there, what did they say? I thought this area was clear, yeah. Yeah. All right. But. Y'all went but but they. Went missing so OK OK OK I'm I'm sure we. Will see we will see what prompted time we could start popping heads yeah but we'll we'll see because if he had to have come into.

50:38 Contact with someone, I mean, because Jess, Jesse went looking for Dina and Ellie and of course they run into the seraphights. So I don't know, maybe Tommy, maybe they saw Tommy and mistook him for a scar and he was able to get away and decided, oh, OK, let me go up here and handle handle this. Because also, if he's sniping, that means he's lying in wait for someone. It's not like he just took up a position and was like, OK, no, he was doing that for a specific reason, their reasons. OK. Don't tell me, don't tell me. We'll we'll we'll get to because I do have questions. We'll get to that towards the end of the the Yeah, I'm, I'm being.

51:24 Facetious about him just starting to snipe at people for there's reasons I know I. Know you're being facetious. I know, I know. All of a sudden, you just. Want to start popping heads? OK, Sir, it might not. Might not be all of a sudden. Anyway. So when when Ellie and Jesse when they when they had their little argument and they go their separate ways. Because Ellie has. Figured out what Nora was talking about when when she's telling Dean about what happened, she said Nora only said 2 words. She said Will and Will and I don't know what that means. So when they're up in this building and they're trying to figure out where Tommy is, she happens to see a Ferris wheel way off in the distance, way off on the on the coast.

52:15 And then she was like, oh, that's what Nora was talking about. She's at the aquarium, you know, the Ferris wheel, Wales, whatever. And Jesse's looking at her like, what the hell are you talking about? Like we supposed to be looking for talking. What are you talking about? But Ellie again, focused and one of the things that I thought about watching this episode, especially with everything that Ellie goes through because they have the argument. Jesse goes his way, she goes hers. She comes down to the dock at night. She sees Isaac and his people. We're going to talk about Isaac in a little bit. She sees him and his people loading stuff on boats in the dark. There's a storm going on, so the water is choppy.

52:58 They go in One Direction. She gets in a boat, she goes towards the the aquarium, she gets knocked over by a huge wave, then she finds herself on the shore. She gets captured by the Seraphites. They get ready to hang her and gut her, and then something is going on that calls them off and they leave her there. I was like Ellie. Take little. Pay attention to the signs sweetheart, cause instead of when you get back to the shore, you get in the boat and you continue on. I'm like baby, keep going. Something keeps trying. To kill you. Something is telling you this is not the path you should be on. That's that's really how I felt about it.

53:40 Like you've been washed over in the boat. You could have drowned. You got hung by the Sarah fights. They were about to get you. But because of an alarm going on from what they said was their village, they let you go. Here's your You got another chance at life. Take the boat, go back, go home. Go home. She keeps going. She gets to the aquarium and the other thing again with her. You don't know who's at. This aquarium. You don't know how many. People are there. And you turn your flashlight. On that. Flashlight on flashlight they're flashing.

54:21 Their light everywhere, everywhere. Everywhere. I was like, what? And I understand she. Needs to see, she needs to be able to see what's going on. But you trying to sneak up on people with your flashlight and it's a. Bright. Flashlight. But anyway, she. Goes through the aquarium, she finally hears voices. She turns the flashlight off and it happens to be Owen and Mel, and they're arguing because what we find out earlier in the episode from Isaac is that Abby is supposed to be leading, helping him to lead whatever battle they're about to do. Because he's not expecting to live. He's not expecting old girl from the two episodes ago, the one whose son went down.

55:13 He's not expecting her to live. He's expecting Abby to take over and lead if they die. But Abby and her whole crew not. Her. Whole crew and not showing up. They they don't know where they are. So you hear. Owen and Mel arguing because Owen is like, yeah, Abby is such and such. I'm going to go find her. You know, we, we got to go because it's Abby. And Mel is like, well, I'm not going to go because it's Abby, because it's Abby. Obviously and I think. We discussed this. We were like, OK, Owen seems to be like Abby's right hand person. That's the person who she's probably going to be able to count on.

55:55 Out of all of those people, Mel, I felt like was going to be the least likely because she was the one who had the problems with what Abby was doing. So you kind of see that here and only has this old thing. OK, well I'm going to go get her and we're going to come back to such and such. And if you're there, you go with us. And if you're not, you're just not. And I was just like. Oh, I get to know what this dynamic is because she was basically like, fuck you, Owen. And then, of course, she gets ready to walk off and she sees Ellie. Ellie has a gun trained on them and they're sitting there and she's telling them, hey, where's Abby? Always, always happens to look at her. And he was like I.

56:39 Saved your life. Don't forget that. And I felt like Ellie should have been like Abby. Like what life? You saved me for. What? OK you saved me so I could come in and get y'all. And he and Mel are having a conversation because he tells her she's just going to kill us once we tell her where Abby is. And Ellie says I'm not because I'm not like you. And I was like, OK, she really didn't kill Nora, but I don't know if I felt like she would leave, she would let them live. I think she was like. OK, she. Says she's not like them and I feel like, like you said, she's trying to break that cycle.

57:20 All she wanted was the map. Because they had just been talking about where Abby was and how they were going to go get her. All she wanted was the map. She said give me the map and I'll let you 2 live. Owen has to try his luck. And tries to go. For a gun and tries to shoot her and she ends up shooting him and she got him right there in the middle of his his neck. He falls. Mel turns to look at the locker behind her, because the bullet is in the locker. Then she turns. Around and you see that the bullet sliced her neck. She falls down and then she tells Ellie. She starts messing around with you, think it's her belt, and she says you're gonna take it out. And I was like, take what out?

58:12 The bullet is not in her neck. Then she reveals that she's fucking pregnant. And I was just like, hey, this a bitch and she's trying to get Ellie to cut out her baby before the baby dies and before he wants her to do wants. Her to do AC section. And Ellie's going to do it. Tell me what to do. You have to make an incision and then she then gone into medical terminology. OK, where traverse, right? How deep Ellie is. Like I don't know what. That means I don't know. What that? What are you?

58:52 What are you? Talking about, yeah. And it's so sad because. Ellie, I don't like you said, I don't think she went there with the intention to kill them. Not them. She don't. She only wants Abby. She only wants Abby. And the fact that Owen, you know, I guess it it is what it is. He he didn't think she was going to let him live. He doesn't know. All he knows about her is, oh, yeah, this is the girl that we held down while we killed. Oh, boy. OK. But the fact that. She couldn't say that baby before Mel died. You see how much that haunts her, that hurts her because again, we just found out Dina's pregnant.

59:34 This could have been, this could be Dina in any situation. And I think that really hits her. And her being so as far along as she was, that means she was pregnant when all that stuff happened with Joel. It's like, Oh well. Because Abby, she was in. She was in. Shock, though. She was literally frozen in shock. Yeah, because. She couldn't do anything. She was like, I don't know what to do. Again. She's, she's growing up in a world where that kind of thing isn't normal or isn't isn't, you know, doesn't happen very often. And then you're using medical terms. I just I felt.

1:00:18 So bad for her. And then of course, here comes Tommy and Jesse. They find her. And they take her away. And Jesse just looks at Mel because of course Mel dies. And I was just like. Oh, this is this is going so bad. This is this is going so bad because you just went through all that and still know Abby. You don't know where she is. You don't know like you don't. They don't even take the map with them when they when they try to get her out, when they try to get Billy out. So. I I guess in a way. For Mel's character, I will say I did feel bad because again, I felt like when all of that stuff was going on with Joel. I don't think she.

1:01:06 Realized Abby meant to do things the way that she ended up doing it. You know, it's one thing. To say, Oh yeah, he he needs to die slow and you. Can think OK. Yeah, she's upset. She's mad. That's probably why she's saying that. But for her to have to sit there and witness that and to see Abby do that to Joel. I kind of. Figured Mel was gonna be one of those. You know, we talked about it. We said sometimes situations like that it we the bond people together or it will push them apart. And I think Mel was the one, probably the only one who's probably like, she's crazy, fuck her, I'm not doing this.

1:01:46 And then again we see. She also had another reason to want to stray away from that type of violence or to stray away from that type of situation. So I I did feel. Bad about her diet, especially since it wasn't intentional. Oh, and no, I don't feel bad about him. Even though Ellie hadn't planned on killing anybody, I don't feel bad for him. You pulled a gun on her. You tried to shoot her. Yeah. So since you're not going to play the game because you're not going to play the game, I, you know. The type of personality I have, if I get that game and I start playing, I ain't doing shit else with my life. Well, one you're not.

1:02:32 Playing because it's a horror game. You're not going to do the jump. Scares you're not going to do. The clickers chasing you, you're not going to and the stalkers, you're not going to do that. The scene played out. Differently in the game where she she had the gun trained on Owen and Mel said something to him, she turned the gun towards Mel. Owen jumped for the gun. And they were. Fighting over the gun, she shot Owen, he falls down. While he's falling down, Mel attacks her with a knife. And then they struggle.

1:03:15 With a knife, struggle with a knife. And then of course, Ellie overpowers her and and stabs her in the neck. OK it. Wasn't until. Then she saw that she was pregnant. OK. So I I. Say this to say again, I think they changed it to show more of this Ellie trying to break the cycle and this Ellie accidentally kills Mel versus killing Mel on purpose, right? But this male did also didn't attack her as well. So right, she didn't attack her. Either and but the look on her face, the shock that she had because she really didn't want to kill them.

1:03:58 You know and. It wasn't like. She still didn't know Mel was. Pregnant, but again, it looks like it's accidental and not on purpose. Yeah, but she literally got on top of her and stabs her in the neck in the game, so that was very purposeful. Well, I mean if. You're, if you're trying to attack me with a knife, then that's what I would do too, right? So. Again, it's trying to show her more human side and not this revenge monster that I wanted to see 2 episodes ago. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how are you feeling about this whole thing? Well, now that I've accepted. That that's what they're trying to do with her. I'm OK with it.

1:04:41 OK. OK, I'm OK. With that, I know a lot of fans are probably wanting to see the revenge Ellie, but you have to realize this is this is literally not the same Ellie. I wonder if we're. Going to see it now since Jesse's dead. Well, I guess it depends. It depends on how that that. OK, we'll we'll we'll come to that. We'll come to that in a little bit. Because they do go back to. The theater, once they have her, she kind of takes her beat and then she comes back and Tommy is so funny because he looks at Jesse. He looks at her because he knows what that did to Ellie.

1:05:25 And then I don't know if he knows that Dana is pregnant, but he senses, OK, you know what? I'm going to go out here and do such and such while y'all have your conversation. And so they have a. Conversation that Ellie thanks him for coming back for her because again, after they had that fight, Jesse was like, OK I I hope you make it. I'm a go find Tommy and he tells me I, you know, how do you know? I came back because I wanted to. I could have came back because Tommy forced me to. And she says, is that what happened? And he takes a beat before he says no. And then he says he. Says because I know if it was me you used to bring the world down to save me. Yeah.

1:06:10 And she said I. Would. And that was I. Feel like that was the start of them reconciling. And then, of course, they hear a commotion coming from the lobby. They run towards the. Sound and like we said Jesse just burst through the door and immediately get shot in the face like and they show us they show us his face his eyes are open the bullet wound goes has gone right in his cheek so there's no chance that he's alive it was funny you. You texted me. They didn't have to shoot him in the face. They didn't have to shoot. Him in the face.

1:06:51 They didn't have to shoot him at. All but I mean, I'm not, I'm actually not surprised, like you said, one, why would you burst through the door like that when you when you know there's a commotion going on, you know that there's something going on. And I get it. He was probably worried about Tommy not thinking about that, probably worried about Dina, even though Dina is upstairs sleeping. Whoever is in the lobby may not have known that Dina was there, but again, they didn't know how many people were in the lobby with Tommy. That could have been why he got overpowered because again, like you said, how the hell did Abby get in? Where did she come from? They had the front door barricaded so. How does he get Tommy on the? Floor without shooting him in the leg.

1:07:35 I don't know but. Again, this is a person who has been trained by militia. She probably has a little stealth of her own. And she? Also has rage because she just found her friend's dead. I don't even know if she knows about Nora. I would assume so if she were looking. For her and can't find her yeah and then the the. Soldiers who chase, who were chasing Ellie, they were probably like, yeah, so Nora ran down there. We're not going down there. We're just, we're not going down there. Yeah, we're just going to. Automatically assume she's dead and maybe, you know, maybe they assume Ellie was dead as well because they didn't know who that was chasing her so they could have made it's it's.

1:08:17 Possible Abby could have could have tracked Tommy to to the the theater that that's possible. Too, especially since Tommy was a sniper. And she could. She could have. Thought that that was the person that killed her friends was a sniper yeah, she. Well, she probably also maybe saw him go to the aquarium, him and Jessie. I mean, we don't know she, but obviously we won't know until. Next season. Now until next season. But you know, anyway, like we said, they come out, she shoots Jesse. Ellie gets up under. The thing and she tries, you know, she pleased with her. She was like, stop, stop, just let him go. I'm the one that you want.

1:09:03 And then when Abby realizes who it is, she was like you and she said, look, I'm the one you want. Joel killed your father to save me. I'm the one you want. Just let him go and I'll come with you. And she looks at Ellie. She says But I let you go and you wasted it and. I'm sitting here. Watching this saying, didn't Joe say the same thing? He said the same thing. Before you. Shot him and beat him to death. He saved your life from hundreds of clickers, but you didn't think that was worthy enough for for you to say, for you to spare him. So why would you expect Ellie to spare any of your friends lives when y'all?

1:09:54 Pinned her down and made. Her watch. But she says. That. She holds her gun up. To Ellie, Ellie is like no, no, no, and we fade to black with a gunshot and then we see. Abby on the couch. Waking up, Manny is coming in there telling her, hey, Isaac wants to talk to us. And then you see her. Go out and she's living in a stadium and they have transformed. The stadium is similar to what they did in season.

1:10:35 I want to say season 4 of Fear the Walk. Because they did the. Same thing they had gardens growing, they used they used the the sweets as living quarters, but they had a lot of shit in that stadium. And then you see it at the bottom. It says Seattle day one. So of course next season we're going to get Seattle day 1-2 and three from Abby's point of view, which will be interesting. But again, I, I have thoughts because I, I don't know what happens at the end of the game. I don't know if she actually kills Ellie. I don't know if Ellie kills her because again, now they seem to be deviating from the game in the way that Ellie is handling things. So.

1:11:23 I don't know if she shot. Ellie or not, I personally feel like Dina might have woken up and heard all of the commotion going on and you know, they're not leaving Dina without a gun, even though she can't move, they're going to leave her with a gun to protect herself in case something happens. I think Dina was on that landing and I think she may have shot Abby. Now, whether she shot her to kill her or whether she just shot her, like maybe in the hand to disarm her or shot her to injure her so that Ellie and Tommy can kind of, I don't know, But I think it's safe. To assume she shot, I assume I It's safer to assume she shot at her. Because she probably.

1:12:09 Didn't process fast enough to make any specific decision about where to shoot her. Who you mean? Does that make sense? Abby. Yeah. Abby shooting at Ellie being the shooting. Abby. No, I, you know what she she wouldn't be like. Trying to aim at her hand to shoot a gun. No, she aimed for Senator Madison, pulls the trigger because that's what they teach you. Yeah. And I was going. To yeah, she could have been off. A little bit in any One Direction, but you know, she's we'll see. I don't know how Michelle. Not right, Michelle. And. I both assumed that that was Dina because they're not going to kill Ellie. I mean they killed too, but.

1:12:55 They're not going to kill. And they're not going to kill Abby either. Probably. Yeah, but. I have a feeling like she's going to be injured. She's going, she's going to be injured, she's going to get up, relax, she's outnumber and run. I'll this. Is going to happen. OK, that's my prediction. OK. Because I feel like if Dina can't, if Dina heard the commotion. Or even if she didn't. Hear the commotion. She most definitely heard that gunshot. The gunshot would have woken her up. The gunshot would. Have woken her up. She would have realized something was going on. She would have came to the thing. Now depending on how the visibility is, she would have seen Tommy on the floor being held at gunpoint. She also would have seen Jessie Jesse's. Face blown off.

1:13:42 Jessie's dead. We've seen his face blown off. And she would have been emotional. She would have just pulled the trigger and yeah. Especially once she realized Abby is about to kill the the only other person in that room that she loves. She would. She she wouldn't have processed anything after seeing just dead. She would have saw Abby wouldn't know who she was, just saw that she was. She saw that brave she. Knew who? She definitely would have known who it was she saw. Yeah, she didn't pull the trigger. And she pulled, she pointed at it and pulled the trigger. She didn't process anything else of it. I'm shooting at that person right there. Yeah. Now the second shot, she was aiming for a head or something if she had a second shot or continue to shoot at her as she ran.

1:14:33 But you know what? I. I kind of. Feel. I feel like she would have. Shot her the ones I don't think she would have shot at her to kill her because even if she is emotional, even if she's pissed. I really feel like she. Would have had enough presence of presence of mind to say Ellie should get that killed. I don't think so. You. Don't think so. No, she can. There's no way she would have saw Jesse and process that much before poking trigger. No possible way. OK, she would have. Saw. Him then Tommy possibly did and the that person standing over Tommy, I'm shooting, period.

1:15:23 She's not going to process. Oh, let me, let me wing her so Ellie can kill her. No, because Ellie don't have no gun. She got a gun pointed at her. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause she. Did throw the gun she. Did she's not going to process but we can process a lot but the emotional state that she would have been in and that and plus having just woken up yeah and. Probably. A little groggy from pain meds? Oh no. That. Well, if she had pain, if she had, I think she. Had alcohol. Which she didn't drink. I don't think they would have had pain meds, but I, I think the gunshot would have woken her up. She probably would have had enough adrenaline going on because now all of a sudden, like, OK, there's a gunshot, that means somebody is in here, there's somebody's in danger. I think she would have been on high alert, but. She would have.

1:16:15 She wouldn't have been able to process. Let me save her for Ellie. No, it would have been. I need to shoot this person now. Period, Yeah. I I am curious. To see everything from Abby's point of view. OK, so this is the thing I am going to ask you. It's going to be a little bit spoilery, but I need some clarification because I think I misunderstood something you said a few episodes ago when you were talking about Tommy in the game from Abby's point of view. You keep saying that he is Abby's monster, and I think, I unders, I think I listened to that and thought that he was going to be working for Abby, not knowing who Abby was.

1:17:07 But no, you mean he's going to be the one going after Abby this time? Something like that? OK, OK. OK, do not have video games. You have many bosses and a boss you have boss fights. He would be like a boss fight. OK, OK, because. I think when you said it A, I say a mini, I say a. Mini boss, you did, but we were talking. About Abby, So I think I, I associated that in my mind, like Abby was the big boss and he was working under her, not knowing who she was. Like maybe he was trying to get information or doing OK. So I completely misunderstood that. So he's going to be a problem.

1:17:49 I see your screen name. He's going to be a problem for the wolves. Yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah, remember he? He's sniping at them and pinning them down. That's this is the. Tommy that I want to see. This is the Tommy that. I want to see. So he walked. He walked. Away apparently unscathed. Oh, even. More so, this is Jesse. Jesse. Walks up and this is like, you ready to go? Yeah, I think I'm pretty good. I, I think I killed maybe 100 of them a week ago now. No, I'm just, I'm just making. I'm just making it up. But you know, that could have been that conversation, 'cause he this is just walk away, right? OK. 'Cause on the radio they say. He's got his pin down.

1:18:32 We can't get to him. We've got casualties, multiple I'm, I'm. Headed to see that version of Tommy and I, I hate. Well, no, I don't hate to say it. If Abby does happen to get away from this situation at the theater, like you said, if Dina just injuries her and she realizes she's outnumbered and she leaves. At that point. I want to see Ellie go full revenge mode. I want her to be like, OK, you know what, fuck this break the cycle thing. I'll break the cycle after she's dead. That's kind of where I am, right? That's where you are.

1:19:14 Yes, because. And and I realized. That's dark. I do have some dark in me that like that. There is nothing that. Would bring me greater pleasure right now. And again. I understand why Abby did what she did. I understand her anger. I understand all this stuff. But again. Y'all were about to take this girl's life. I know Abby didn't have anything to do with that, but your dad was about to take this girl's life. And like you said, when Joe said just let her go, I think the doctor did say I can't do that or some some boys I did because I can't she. Said I can't do that.

1:19:57 And then he started going towards with the knife, like the scalpel, like really do. So it is what? It is, you know, I, I mean, I hate it for everybody else because we don't know if there are any other doctors who may have been able to do that. But we also don't know if he was actually able to do that. You know, like we said, Ellie could have very well been sacrificing her life for nothing. They he could have got in there and be like, oops, I made a mistake or oops, I can't do this or oops, this is not working out the way I thought it was going to work out. He could have eat it. It could have gone wrong. We will never know. But. At this point.

1:20:38 It's, it's going to be a, it's a cycle because you have Joel saving Ellie and then Abby going after Joel. And now Ellie is going after Abby because of what she did to Joel. And it's just going to keep going and keep going. And at some, I, I mean, I'm sure at some point Manny is next. Manny is probably going to be the first person to die in the in Season 3 because it's just him and Abby left from that group and Abby says. Abby says he killed all my friends. Oh, so. Oh, and when we saw Manny in the end, that was day one. OK, So, yeah.

1:21:23 But I mean, again, Manny put Ellie in the hospital for three months. So I love you, Danny Ramirez, but you got to go. You got to go. Everybody else is dead, all of the lesser. The smaller. Threats. I guess you could say they're gone. I mean Owen. And Mel were accidents. Nora, I'm, I'm sorry. Nora got what she deserves. She was the one that was sitting with her knee in Ellie's back and she got what was coming to her eye. Oh well, whatever. Now I don't. Think this will be the last we see of those characters, because if we're shifting the story to Abby's point of view for those three days in Seattle, we're going to see all of them.

1:22:10 We're going to see all of them. And we're going to see what caused whatever this this small rift between Owen and Mel at the end having to do with whatever it was they were supposed to do. Did you see the bruise? Did you see the bruise on Abby's neck? How she get away? 'Cause that's going to be a story. Yeah, she. She she got caught by the Cerefites, but that's the other thing. So we did see Isaac again in this episode and he is planning something having to do with this war. And like I said earlier, we saw him and his people putting stuff on boats and they were going to another side of the island.

1:22:50 There's something happening. With the Cerefite village, when they're trying to kill Ellie and when she, you know, when she gets herself to the boat and is headed towards the aquarium, she sees an explosion in the forest. So I I'm assuming Isaac and his people, they blew up the Seraphight village. Yes, they were loading. Bombs on those boats, which is about to. Escalate things to a whole different level if there are any seraphights left. But yeah. I'm looking forward to next. Season I I I'm really looking forward to seeing Abby's perspective Day 1-2. Me too.

1:23:34 And I again, I, I want to see what Tommy is up to. I, I need to see that. Yeah. I want to see what what what caused him to pin them down Like, yeah, what was day? Three that day Three must have been hell for everybody. Must have been hell. For everybody, he he freaked them all. Out they know. Are the Sirah fights using guns now you know No, because they. Said They say he's not a scar. He's he's unidentified or unidentified. So they knew he. Wasn't a seraphight. So I I don't. Know, but the problem is how long are we going to have to wait for Season 3?

1:24:17 That's going to be the main thing. I don't know how. I don't know because I. Wonder. I wonder if they filmed. Everything together. I wonder if they filmed it all. I don't think I've heard. Anything to that effect? So I haven't either, but. It it would make sense if they did, yeah. Let's hope, because if that's the case, that means they could be they could be either in post production now or they could be like maybe filming the last part of season 3. I don't know how many episodes season 3 is going to have, but hopefully they won't go any lower than what they did with this one.

1:25:01 They they did 7 this season. We had eight last season. It's going to be. 6 and let's not. Do that. Let's let's with 7. Or. 8 Again, especially if if you're not using. Because season 1 was 8. Yeah. The Season 7. Yeah, make season B6. No, let's do 7. 2 episodes. Per day. Yeah, but then we got to see. What's going to happen after day three? That'll be it'll be two. Episodes of day three, OK and Convergence will be probably episode 6 of season 3, OK. That can work the.

1:25:49 Beginning. Maybe the beginning of that episode will be the end of this season finale. OK, so. We don't know if they're doing a season 4, so most likely they will wrap up. Either in. Season 3 or if they get renewed for season 4? Season 4, because I do remember them saying that they were not going to extend the show past what the game does. So they're not going to add the story. They're not going to add, you know, any of that leaks have come out about. The Last of Us 3. The game.

1:26:29 Oh is there? Oh. Oh, OK. Yeah, I. Don't know. I don't know how valid the leaks are or how certain people are, but there's rumors that there's there's going to be a Vasbus 3, OK, And it's it's going to be Ellie is evolved. OK. And it's going to be. About some new characters stuck in the Manor house. Oh, OK. That's all the leak. Was OK. OK for the leak that I read. OK. No confirmation. Just just to.

1:27:10 Oh, OK. OK, so. How are we feeling about? Season 2 overall, because I know you struggled with it, you felt like it lagged in, in a lot of places it it was. Up and down and very, very much like. Very much like Wheel of. Time. As I said, there was a moment when I realized that you can't make this LE, you can't compare this Ellie with the game Ellie because they're they're very different. Unless you realize that this is really about breaking. It's really obvious now about breaking the cycle of violence that she's trying to get away from me. And, and going back to what GAIL said, she's not on the path that Joel put her on.

1:27:57 He didn't put her on this. Path. She's on the whole separate path of her own. And when you look. At it like that, it makes sense. And actually in retrospect, this is it's really not that bad of a season. I mean, there's some things I can nitpick about just internal consistency of the characters. Some of the. Choices the characters made just. Once you get past that. It actually wasn't bad, the last few episodes kind of made-up for for it. OK, OK, cool. All right, Yeah. I, I, I actually, I enjoyed it and I, I think because I can look at it from a perspective of not having expectations from the video game, I can probably enjoy it a little bit more because I'm not constantly comparing.

1:28:50 So there were things I think they did very well this season. Again, I think see episode 6 was my favorite out of the whole season, if not the entire show. Just that little background of Ellie and Joel's relationship and how it hit its peak and then kind of how things deteriorated from there. Just the emotion and everything with those characters. I I loved that episode. I feel like. We were just getting to know Jesse and then we lost him. So I'm a little bit sad about that fact. But again, I think we talked about it a few episodes ago.

1:29:30 I was expecting either him or Dina to die. I'm glad it wasn't Dina, but I am sad that it is Jesse because I think if his character stuck around a little bit more, I would have liked his character even more. But he, he wasn't one of those characters were all like, OK, I, I, I loved his character and I'm sad to see him go. But yeah, I I thoroughly enjoyed this season and I hope. We don't have to wait. Too long for Season 3, so, but there will be other opportunities to talk about this show. We will be doing a Last of Us panel at ATL Comic Convention, which is I think the third weekend in July. So we are doing that panel.

1:30:22 I will actually be appearing on another podcast this week, the MCU's Bleeding Edge Podcast to talk about The Last of Us. So that will come up and then we are going to try to record our Season 2 Gamer episode like we did last season. What we did was we have a few gamer friends who have played the games and also watched the show. So that particular episode will focus on comparisons between the game and the show and how people like it. So we're going to try to have same people on from last season for this season. We'll try to record that next week. And then we will be taking an extended hiatus because I will be going on a cruise to celebrate my 50th birthday. I think Anthony and Michelle are going out of town for a little bit and then Mike is still recovering from his surgery. So by the time I get back from my cruise, everyone should be present and able to record.

1:31:23 So we are going to finish out with our. Final Wheel of Time. Episodes because that show got cancelled so we'll do the last three episodes for those and I think we're going to do a second Thunderbolts episode now that Mike will be back so we can get his and then we'll be talking about some other shows. Iron Heart is getting ready to come out we'll cover that and then like I said we have ATL Comic Convention that is coming up. Dragon Kind is coming up so we got to do some prep for that. Michelle and I will be talking about Blood of Blood of My Blood, which is the Outlander prequel.

1:32:05 It premieres in early August. So that's kind of where our summer is going. So for now, that's it for The Last of Us and that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media on a whole, the social media at Phantom Hybrid. You can chat with us on our Discord channel, you can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.