The Walking Dead: Dead City Season 2 Episode 3 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #365

0:24 What's up hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Haniko and I'm here with Casey and we are discussing episode 3 of Season 2, Walking Dead Dead City. Michelle is not joining us tonight, so we're going to try to hold it down without her. Well, where do I want to start? OK, let's let's let's start with the flashbacks because we're starting to get a little bit of the back story between the Dhamma and Herschel. Yeah. I don't know what the Dhamma did in her past life, but she's very convincing.

1:08 And to a kid like Herschel, I'm sitting here looking and it's it's like you can see him in, in the flashbacks with the Dhamma. And then even in present day when he's talking to Maggie, whatever Logan Kim is doing with his face, he needs to keep doing it. Because when he is in the presence of the Dhamma in the flashbacks and when he's talking to Maggie, his face kind of takes on a, like, a faraway look, like he's getting fuzzy. And I was like, this motherfucker. Brainwash as fuck. Yeah. Like, you took my name.

1:50 You took my screen name. I was going to put brainwash and you took it. But I was watching this, like, this is really interesting. Yeah. Because you know for. Me. It was after you were slang last week or last episode. I'm sorry, I'm just playing last episode that it was her show that started the fire. Once I finished this, you know, once I got into this episode how it showed how the demo basically groomed him, and once I recalled back to that like little mole.

2:37 Oh, OK. Yeah. It it it find the click for me and I'm like, but we you. But in my mind, we should have known that like I think we did. But it's, it's one thing thinking it and then to to actually see it happening in quote UN quote real time. And, and it's like she didn't even, it's almost like she didn't even have to lead up to it. Like she saw Herschel and I don't know, maybe she knew a little bit about the background because the Croat said something. She was just like, Oh, I can exploit this because she came in all nice.

3:20 Oh, I'm so sorry. You were, you know, you were tied up like this. Do you want some peanut brittle? Oh, wait a minute. You wouldn't even know what that is. And da da, da, da. And she comes across as like, just very, I don't want to say innocent, but kind of, you know, nice. And then almost immediately, like, I think the next meeting that we see is when she starts going in about, yeah, I heard about what that man Negan did to your father and da, da, da, da. And you start to see that's a trigger for Herschel, even though with Maggie, he doesn't seem to let on. But with this person, stranger, what is she going to do? So it's like, yeah, you know, I really don't care. But she, you know, she's so obsessed him that I can't even, and it's just, you know, we see that repeat it later on.

4:05 He's like, I can't even talk about how I feel about the thing which we, we've had these discussions about. And the DOMA just kind of slides on in there. Well, I can't imagine her having to go through that and live through that. And I had something that happened to me too. And it was hard for me to go through and I had to deal with it alone. And she, she hasn't been able to heal. And how is she supposed to, you know, the one person who's supposed to be there for you? She can't because I was sitting here like right what? Right, and it also then now explains all the animosity because remember before I was like he need to talk to his God damn Mama.

4:47 But this now explains why he had the attitude, why he was feeling some type of way because she done planted all these damn scenes in your mind. Like if she really scared about you, if she when she's so focused on herself and she's so focused about what, where does that leave you? And. What I. See you. Yeah, he was spitting back to her, 'cause remember when it was. Exactly. And got in the car and he was like, you just focused on you and what you want. You can't see the big picture. You can't see no laser focus on me again. When I say when, when she said that in this episode, when she said I see you, I was like, Oh my God. So now it's like I feel like once this season is over, I need to go back and look at the other stuff with, with Herschel and Maggie and see if he is spitting out everything that she said to him.

5:42 Because just from what she, what we saw in this episode, remember this is episode 3. And contrary to what we said last week, this season has 8 episodes, not 6. So I'm sure we're going to see more, especially because they're still in Manhattan and at, at some point, I feel like they're going to have to meet face to face. So I, I just want to know how Herschel and the Dahmer, OK at some point, because there are too many things that have happened just in these three episodes. Herschel setting the fire, you know, the Dhamma already knowing that Negan was trying to save somebody.

6:29 And I think she figured out then, especially when he said it was just a kid. It was just a kid. I think she knew it was Herschel. Yeah. Because in this episode, when she's talking to him and she's talking about the things that they're going to have to do to protect this new world they're trying to bring. And she said, and when you get home, there may be some things that you have to do there that you might not necessarily like. I was like, wait a minute. I'm sitting here trying to figure out if Herschel is the spot. Like, is there some kind of way he's getting word back to her? I don't know if I feel like he's sophisticated enough to do that yet. But if she's grooming him in this way and she's brainwashing him, ain't no telling what he's doing.

7:14 I mean, he already knew how to send the signal. So at some point she probably told him, if you make it back to the city, do this and I'll know you're here. And and yeah, it's it's like it makes you look at Herschel in a different light because, you know, up until this point, we're looking at him as just an angry child, spoiled child, whatever, which he is. All of those things. And if you also got somebody, if you got that bad Angel sitting on your shoulder whispering in your ear, that's gonna escalated because there are times like the the time when he found the girl from from the new group we meet in this episode.

8:00 His facial expression is different. He looks more childlike. He looks more innocent. He looks more free. He looks more, you know, him. And I was like, it's such a it's, it's very subtle, but it's such a difference the way his face is when he's with other people and then the way he is with Maggie, especially when he's upset with Maggie. But like that talk they had in the I think they're called the foragers in their little cafe headquarters When she was like, you remember when I asked you if the city had a had some kind of pull on you?

8:41 You told me no, but does it? She said, I just need to understand. And the way he looked, he was looking at her like, and I was just, I was like, dude. What is? Are you even? Really here 'cause he, he had that kind of far what the, what they describe in books, that far off glassy look, that's how he looked. And I was like, oh, this helper did a number on him. And I just, I don't know if Maggie is, I don't know if she's equipped to deal with that because I don't think they've really had a situation that they've dealt with where someone was brainwashed like that.

9:24 Not to that degree. I mean, you had, you probably had your saviors who were to some extent, but that was more so because most of them were trying to survive. And they were like scared of me again, because he had gotten into that character so much that he started being this person. And they're like, yeah, no, we ain't, we ain't fucking with him, you know what I'm saying? But yeah, that the whole Herschel and Damma thing, it's so strange because she she does the thing first where they they have him tied up. She lets him go, she gives him the peanut brittle. She tells him she's going to bring him a bed and a blanket.

10:06 And then you see him at another time. And I'm assuming this is probably maybe a few days or a few weeks later because I can't remember how long he was there before they rescued him. But he has like a desk in his, in his little cell room, whatever you want to call it. And he's drawing. And that's when she comes in. She starts having a conversation with him, but she's also giving him, you know, more food. She's making it seem like she's befriending him. And like she, oh, I've been, I've been so lonely this whole time. And, you know, now I have a little friend to talk to, and she leaves the door kind of cracked open. And so at night, that night, he tries to go out and there's, of course, a Walker there that he has to fight off.

10:49 And when it's almost getting him, she kills it. She was like, oh, I'm so sorry that you had to deal with that. And oh, I'm so glad you found your way out. Let me show you something. It's like fish. Ain't no other walkers in your hallway. We know you planted that Walker just specifically for this purpose. But of course, I don't think again, Hershel, I think at this time is like 13, 'cause I think I saw a time, I saw a timeline somewhere that was like, he's supposed to be 19 now. And like, I'm like, no, I don't think he's, I don't think he's that old, I don't think. But she takes him into this, this other room. And the room has lots of art. It has paintings, it has sculptures. It has everything that would appeal to a young artist. And he's looking around.

11:38 Even when he looks at the sculpture of the mask that she says was by her favorite artist, he has that dreamy look again, like, oh, and I was like, that's how she's getting him because she's letting him know things that are important to her, things that she cares about, things that she liked. And then she's showing them to him. And I was like, this is where Maggie Lawson, because I don't. She probably has never done that with him, right, You know, because if she's been all this obsessed with with Megan and still living in the past, I mean, how long has it been? Has Maggie even been with anybody else?

12:20 Like, I understand having a type of love for someone that is everlasting, but what she's doing is so unhealthy, not just for her but for Herschel, too. Yeah, you know, and so you see him and he's looking, he's you can tell he feels connected to her. And then she closes the damn door and turns the thing on and the whole room starts shaking and they're on an elevator. That's what I thought when I say I said she don't build the whole room in the elevator. But then you have to remember they're in that big ass theater. So I'm sure the elevators is probably like a service elevator. But yeah, novel idea.

13:02 Yeah, I think I want an elevator room. But yes, I I I thought that but I've never seen no elevator with no window. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So outside. Yeah, OK. Maybe I'm sheltered. No. Well, I mean, because the Peachtree Plaza has an elevator that if you if you think about the Westin the Westin Peachtree Plaza downtown, the big one circular building, there's all sphere on the side that is an elevator and it it and it looks out on. Yeah. OK, And then I'm supposed to try that.

13:43 Hello. Steve Rogers fought he fought hydrate You are after the windows. Was that around? But that kind of old timey elevator is, I agree, that's kind of weird. But the thing with that though, and I think it's genius, is also she says that Herschel probably has never felt at home anywhere. Because I mean, think about it, when he was a kid, him and Maggie moved around. They they went to her grandpa, her grandmother's house in South Carolina for a little bit. And then they were on the road. And then they were with Jordy Georgie, and then they were with Meridian. And then they came to Commonwealth and now they're at the bricks. So Herschel, I don't think has ever had a sense of permanence. So even when we when we saw the first episode of this season, when he and Maggie were going into his room, you know, they were talking about giving his desk to another family, he was just like, yeah, I don't really use it anymore anyway, so it's fine.

14:48 But if you looked at his room compared to the to the room she built him, his room was very bare. It didn't really have a lot of personal effects. So the fact that this woman who, you know, I guess it's kind of sort of your captor if depending on what his mindset was, she created a whole room for him because he was like, what is this? Is this your room? She was like, no, this is yours. I had this created especially for you. And you can see the awe on his face, like nobody has ever done this for me. Yeah. He. He never had no room. Now we've moved around and in the room, he you do have that, the bricks. Yeah, like I said, it's very, very basic, very minimal. Isn't is, is not personalized at all.

15:32 And he's just, he, I just don't think he's ever really felt a sense of belonging. And I think maybe that kind of goes back to the whole Commonwealth thing too, that I was talking about last week. Even though he was there and he had Judith and Hersh, I mean, RJ and Gracie and what other kids were there, he probably still kind of sort of felt like an outsider. These are kids who have been together for years and he was just coming in. And then of course, they, they moved to the Commonwealth and that's another move from Alexandria to the Commonwealth, even though Alexandra was already kind of rough when they got there. But I, I just think she, she saw a way to get to him and she did it.

16:18 And when she saw his drawing, she complimented his drawings. And, you know, she didn't think anything about what he was drawing was weird because he was drawing the city the way he saw it. And then, of course, she brings up she was like, somebody else would have fixed it. He was like, I don't even know what these buildings look like before. Why? But how would I do that? Yeah. So he was like, but I don't think they need fix. And I think they they're fine the way they are. And then you hear him later on in the episode talking to Maggie. He says everybody's looking at the city like it's broken. It's it's abandoned, he said. And I don't see it that way. It was like, yes, broken, it's abandoned, but it's also beautiful. And it, it can be something else. And you kind of felt like he was talking about himself.

17:01 And I think Maggie kind of picked up on that, too, because her face looked horrified. Like, is this how it been making him feel? Yes, yes. You have been so caught up in your grief that you have not thought about what it's doing to your child. And I'm not saying that she shouldn't grieve. Yes, you can grieve. You can still grieve. You still be triggered. But. There has to be a point where, yes, you know, these things trigger you, yes, you know, they bother, but they're you have to be able to in a sense, live with it so that you can move. On especially in the midst of a zombie apocalypse, you have a lot of loss that you've dealt with.

17:46 You will probably deal with more loss. You can't shut down every single time something like that happens. Because what's going to happen if you're, let's say, in a situation where you're in a park overgrown with trees and walkers are coming out of the place and you get separated from your son? What are you going to do then? And I mean, we see what she does, but it's kind of like, are you really thinking straight when you're doing it? Are you just like, I got to go find my son. I got to go find my son. Maggie is very tunnel visiony like she has, I said this one track mind.

18:28 This is my goal. This is what I'm. Doing and I don't care what I have to do in order to get it, because my thought is if it, and this is, I mean, we get, I get it, We need a show. We need but if you this upset with me again you wouldn't give give a damn what happened to him after you dropped his ass off to the Croat. Like you wouldn't have cared after season 1. You wouldn't have had to go back and save him. You would have just said fuck him. His fate is his fate. Man, OK, so I've been thinking about that a lot in light of us talking about the show. And then because we have a panel coming up where we discussed Maggie and her actions or whatever.

19:09 And, you know, I think I've kind of sort of figured out what Maggie's issue is. And I think it's not necessarily about her being able to let Megan go, her being able to forgive. I think really for Maggie, it's if she, if she gives Megan any sort of leeway, you know what I'm saying? Any kind of forgiveness, whatever, whatever. Because if she, if you look at the way Megan is now and the way Megan has been with her for quite a while, again, it's very obvious Megan is not the same Megan that we met. Negan is a person who's trying to go back to the person he was before he became savior.

20:01 Negan maybe a little bit better version. And that could be for any number of reasons. That could be for guilt. That could be because of what Judith brought out in him. That could be because of what Jenny brought out of him, Annie, whatever. But he obviously is trying to be a better person. You have to be blind not to see that. And I know Maggie sees and I know that's part of the guilt that she feels when she does the main things him because she's like OK at least he's trying because y'all have had some enemies that didn't give a fuck. But if Maggie stops hating Negan, eventually she's going to have to turn that hate somewhere. And I feel like she's going to look in the mirror and she's going to reflect it on herself because then she's going to have to start thinking and taking accountability for her own actions.

20:57 And she's going to have to think, how did we get to this point? And I mean, this is something we always talk about. Maggie is the one out of the group who walked into Gregory's room and said, hey, we'll take care of this savior's problem for you. But you're going to give us what you were giving them, plus half of everything else. Maggie made that decision. Yeah. Maggie was the one who made the decision that, OK, we're going to go and kill these people. Yeah. And then, of course, we know what happened at the outpost, and we know the aftermath of that. But ultimately, and I was, I will die on this hill, Maggie is ultimately responsible for their whole interaction with Negan. Because if they hadn't have done that, they could have still probably for at for a while at least, Gregory was a snitch so that it probably wouldn't have lasted long. But Gregory didn't know where Alexandria was. They could have.

22:05 They could have made their little deal with him. They could have gone on their own little way and decided to let that part of the world stay that part of the world. Let them keep their deal with Negan. The only other interaction Negan would have had was the people on the street who killed his folks. He's going to want to know where those people came from. Yeah, but and and and then maybe he would have crossed pairs with them and it would have been totally different. But Maggie will at some point have to look at that and own her own responsibility for everything that happened with *** And I don't think she's what? I don't think she's considered that yet. And two, I don't think she's ready to do that yet. That's why she's holding on to the hate for *** so long, because if she doesn't hate me again, this you guys start thinking of some other stuff.

23:00 But she's got to really start looking at that situation. She's gonna have to realize, oh, you know what? I kind of fucked that up. But you also have to remember back in season 1, Negan basically said that he said that to her so she's aware. He said had y'all not came in and fucked with my people, all he was doing was the same thing Rick would have done had someone snuck in today. You know, the thing was, Negan had more people, but had Rick had a whole gang of people and Negan people came and snuffed out some of the the survivors, we would have felt somewhat exactly. Yes.

23:44 Yeah. But they, but here's the thing, and this is the other thing I said, like I know we are Rick's people. Rick. Rick has done some questionable things, but we still stand behind him because we've been following Rick's journey from the beginning. But everybody else, the Governor, Alpha, Megan, the Wolves, everybody came at Rick and they group front face the Terminus people. They came and confronted them, Maggie and Rick and all of them. When they went after Megan's people, they did it in the dark, they did it undercover, they did it while people were asleep and defenseless. And I'm sorry, on the one hand that is a very smart move because you're making sure none of your people are going to get hurt.

24:39 But I'm the same at the same time. Y'all supposed to be so big and bad. Why would y'all do that in that cowardly way, you know? But again, it it, it could have been different. Like if we'd, and we've said this before, if we had started following the journey of Megan through this, like if, if, if that episode in 10 C the here's Megan episode, if that's where we started the show. And then we followed him all the way through what he went through with the people losing Lucille, what made him decide? Oh, OK, so y'all cause me the, you know, basically contribute to my wife's death 'cause I couldn't get her medicine back to her.

25:24 So now I'm about to kill all y'all and everything that happened. From there. We would totally be Team Megan. Absolutely. So it's the. Perspective that you received 'cause even, even if you go back to when Virgil, Virgil gave Michelle in the hallucinogen yes and she ended up on the inside because remember Rick Nim just drove right past her like she wasn't shit. Same way they did the other backpack guy who eventually they, he died and they ended up stealing his butt backpack. But you, you have to look at it. It's based on the perspective of the story that you're given. We only got one side of the story. And on our side Rick and the survivors are correct, right.

26:08 Oh, let us preemptive strike and and get ahead of this thing, Yeah. And then you think about the other things you think about, and I know we're going away into the weeds, we're going to reel it back in. But you think, you think about when Rick and his people got to Alexandria and they were like, OK, if the Alex, if these people don't conform and do what we tell them to do to survive them, we just going to take it. We're going to take it from them. The same thing we sit here complaining about New Babylon, what they're doing. Y'all just don't go in and take something somebody else made. Now, luckily, that didn't happen with Rick and his crew because they realized, OK, these people just don't know any better because they've never had to know better.

26:51 Yeah. And they were eventually able to build community with the Alexandras, So that's the good thing. But yeah, going back to going back to Maggie, Yeah. I I really feel like that's why she's holding on to Negan so much. And it's, again, it's damaging her relationship with her son. Yeah, you know, she has the argument with him because once they, when they separated, Herschel is off in Central Park by himself and he comes across this girl who, who helps him get away from the walkers because they're surrounded by walkers. And I know we're going way out of order, but we'll, we'll, we'll get back around. But then, you know, eventually he gets ready to be attacked and Megan comes to the rescue and he looks at Megan. It's almost like he's confused at 1st and then he has a gun in his hand.

27:46 He shoots at Megan. And then it's like he's trying to figure out like, did I just do that? When he looks, Megan is gone. But he's so confused. He doesn't know what to do because again, the only thing he he knows about Megan is from what Maggie has told him and probably what other people may have mentioned to him. But all of his experiences with Negan personally, Negan has never hurt him. Negan has never been mean to him. Negan actually saved his life, you know, not once, twice. He saved his life in the main show and then he just saved his life with this with this boat. And then I don't know if you noticed it when Negan, when we see Megan again after that encounter with Herschel and he's sitting there looking upset, he has tears coming out his eyes because that, you know, for for Megan, I think Herschel will always be a reminder of the bad shit of the worst thing he's ever done. You know what I'm saying?

28:50 That will that will always be a reminder for him. And I know he has conflict about that, but Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, I just. Yeah. It's like when you, when you see all of this stuff and what's going on with the diamond, how she's kind of manipulating Herschel and kind of getting in there, it's like it's so easy to see where things have gone wrong. Yeah. And I, I just, I have a feeling things are going to get so much worse because it's like 1 minute. Herschel was trying to be nice, we're trying to be civil, and then the next minute he's going off. It's like he doesn't have a handle on his emotions, which, again, teenager, that's not what we expect. But you're really not in a position right now where you can have that luxury.

29:39 You got to keep your head on straight. You are in enemy territory. Granted, you have a new group that just saved your ass. Yeah, but even with that, even with that, I was like, you know what? Here we are. We've encountered a new group and already somebody has died. Don't take a. Long when these these mother fuckers is involved, don't take a long at all right? Although they didn't kill them. They didn't kill it, but it's it's still almost like just being in their proximity. Get away from me.

30:23 Right. Because it, it's not Maggie, it's not Herschel. But if you think about it, all the really, really crazy stuff started when Rick got to the green farm, when they got over there, that's when Carl got shot. And then everything went downhill from there, downhill from there. Because the stuff from before that was kind of anyway, OK, we're gonna we're gonna step away from Maggie for a little bit because we have gone way into the weeds with this conversation. Let's talk about the new people and, and the new Babylonians and and their interactions because I'm so tired. Tired of that bitch of nevaehs she getting on my. Damn that she really is stage a coop during the middle of a funeral.

31:22 Not even not even that. Let's let's let's rewind it a little bit. You all are tracing through Central Park or what used to be Central Park is overgrown. It's got monkeys because you hear the monkeys. Something else was at the zoo. Something else is in there 'cause you heard something roar, but you're going through you've just lost all these people, including your governor and then you. Look in it. I don't think that was her, OK? I don't think that was her. I think that was another 'cause when I looked, there was one shot of, I think it was Jenny, and you could see some of the people behind her. There were actually two other black women in that scene, all with the same curly hair.

32:11 I can hear Michelle now. They probably raided the same waist. Well, no. You know black women in that natural. I don't know if that natural would be that late 2020 years into a zombie apocalypse. It would be looking more like Sasha's hair. No disrespect, but I was trying. To give him the benefit of the though, I'm saying. Sasha's hair was definitely natural, you know? But yeah, so you're going, you're going through the park, you're you're trying to regroup. And Maggie says, OK, so we need to sit here, rest, and then we need to figure out how to go home. And then she and Pearly start going back and forth because Pearly is like, but we're already here. We need to do such such.

32:55 And the bias is like, no, we need to go get the methane. And you know, it occurred to me when she said that I was like, you don't even know what getting the methane means. You think you're just going to go pick up a few containers of this gas? I don't think they realize how it's a whole elaborate separation. It is. And I'm sitting here looking at her and when Pearly agrees with her, she has this look like, I thought so. And I was just like, again, y'all are so fucking dumb. Yeah, you just lost what what the mag said. You just lost 50 people, and we don't want to lose 50 more than take your ass home.

33:39 You have what you what you're dealing with y'all. Y'all just walking randomly. Here comes a Walker tied up in some vines. They were able to get one of your people. And then you go deeper into the park. You see it's overgrown and you just push through because you, because Pearly says there's a what did he say? There's a river or a lake, and then there's a boathouse on the other side. Dude, you ain't been here. Since when? How do you even know that stuff is still there? You know somebody else hasn't come to take it. Because I don't know if I was looking at the wrong thing.

34:22 I didn't see not a bit of water on that ground. I didn't either. Looks like the looks like the river, the lake, whatever has been overgrown, dried up. So you're going through all of these weeds and the grass and everything and you're just going through you're making noise. I'm like have y'all encountered dormant walkers in the field before? Again, I just zombie killing one-on-one different group of people, but you.

35:05 Already know the people from New Babylon don't know shit. They relying on their guns but. That's the thing, you have been in this zombie apocalypse for more than a decade, almost 2 decades at this point. True. OK true. You should know some basics like if there is grass, if there is an open field and the open field just going to be empty, especially New York, Manhattan. Did your spies not? I don't know. I they were going through there and just, you know, they're, they're like going through the grass and chopping through the grass. And then of course, folks start disappearing. I was like, OK, here we go.

35:50 And then you have like walkers coming at you from all directions. Everybody scatters. Nevaez was looking at Jenny like she was about to push Jenny into some of them walkers. She was all about same with herself, honey, so they're. All fighting with walkers. Jenny loses her bag that has the gun in it and then first she, like I said, he's off to himself. Maggie gets pulled off to herself and I was just like, I understand why Maggie kind of went on with it because they're they're still threatening her. If you desert, then you know, you're 20 people back home. They're still going to pay the consequence. Y'all act like y'all are going to get out of New York first of all.

36:38 First of all, you act like you I. Could have sworn you were told in the beginning this was a death mission, so somebody said that. Right. And not only that, y'all keep calling it an exploratory mission when obviously it's not because Novias is still like, no, we're going to get the methane and then we're going to go home. And Pearly is like it's a. Like it's a little bag. That methane, that methane will help the families. And Maggie is like, oh, the families of the kids that that just died, the ones that y'all told them they had to serve. Like really? Y'all Y'all let the kids die, but they're supposed to be happy. Y'all got methane. Yeah, don't give a damn about that method, Mama left, didn't come back.

37:22 No, the kids left and didn't come back. They were recruiting the younger people. So yeah, they're they're going through the grass, they're going through all this stuff. And like I said, they got walkers coming from everywhere. And then Herschel notices the Walker that killed one of the soldiers, the first one, it's heart is missing. And he's just looking at it like ain't holding the shift. That's interesting. But he didn't say anything. So that that kind of made me feel like, and I will say this too, the rest of the episode, the way that Herschel's talking, the way that the diamond has kind of groomed him, I feel like he might kind of be on that.

38:12 I don't know if spectrum is the word that I want to use, but I feel like he is similar to like maybe Nick from Fear The Walking Dead or Alpha and Beta in that he looks at the dark stuff a little differently and the other people. But I also feel like it's because, like the Dhamma said, he knows nothing of the world before, right? Because the world had already fallen when he was born. So this is all he's ever known. So I'm sure he doesn't look at it differently. This is not strange to him. This is all he's ever known. Yeah. I, I feel like him looking at a Walker or him looking at a destroyed city, it will be just like us going to another city and seeing their skyline. It's like, oh, that's something pretty. I've never seen it before.

39:07 That's how he looks at Manhattan. It's something different. You know, he's probably never seen massive buildings like that because in Virginia, the area of Virginia they were in, there's no skyscrapers. They weren't in in a downtown, you know, metropolitan area in South Carolina. When they went to Maggie Grandmothers House, they were on the beach. So that probably was something kind of magical to him. And then here you have the Dhamma whispering in his ear. Oh yeah. You know, everybody wants to take it back the way that it was, but you see it for what it could be, or you understand it and blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's making him feel important and seen and like his opinion matters and values it, right.

39:56 But anyway, going back to the going back to Central Park. So like I said. Herschel gets rescued by this one girl from one of the Barazi, and we'll we'll come to that. But on the other side, Maggie and the rest of the game, they find this, I guess it was supposed to be like a cafe. And there's some people coming out of it strangely dressed the the dress kind of primitively. And they leave them inside and inside they're baking stuff with ovens and all this other stuff. And I'm looking around like, what are they doing? And then the leader, you meet her.

40:37 And I was like, I'm going to like her, which is bad because I have a feeling she's going to die because she's around this group of mother fuckers, Yeah. That'll do it. But she's like, yeah, you guys are making a lot of noise. We could have just left you out there. But we, you know, we went on ahead and saved you. And we just want you to leave when it's time to leave, act like, you know, leave. Don't come back. Act like we don't exist because we don't exist. And I'm like, yeah, y'all, y'all are still sitting in the park 20 years in the. Cut though 'cause you ain't nobody trying to fight that force to to go fuck with them. And apparently what they do is when they, their people die, they take the hearts out and then they allow the walkers to roam Central Park. What did she tell them?

41:29 She was like, we did. They protect us. And it's not about killing them. She was like, those are our brothers, our sisters, our husbands, our children. You know, though, they are US. And as long as they kind of familiar. Yeah, but in a different way. Yeah, but when she said that was like. Yeah, because basically she was like, look, they're out there and if you notice, they don't, they don't really come into that enclosure. So I don't know if that that little place is kind of soundproofed or whatever, but she was like, they protect us. And as long as they protect us, we're good. Nobody comes this far in. And what was it that the Croat told Negan?

42:09 Anybody who goes in, they don't come out. So whether the walkers or whether they see these people and they're like, oh, y'all got y'all got I'll intentions, we're going to kill y'all. We're going to make y'all part of the Walker, her whatever, OK, But whatever it is they've done, it's worked up until now. So our group come along because the girl who helps Herschel get stabbed by the person who is in the the thing with me again. And then, you know, they take her back. And he stabs her so unnecessarily. You know what? OK, so unnecessarily. So let's talk about let's talk about him for a minute, OK? Because first of all, him and the Croat and and and we keep saying this, the Croat keeps trying to talk to Negan like I'm, I'm gonna eventually bring the old Negan back out. The old Negan back out.

43:08 I don't know why you want to do that, but OK. But you make this comment to Negan and you're like, I understand, you know, I understand why you hesitated with the boat. You were saving a child and you've you've always said children were off limits. So I'll just, you know, I'll make sure that you won't be the one to have to kill the child. And then this dude says I'll do it for you with a laugh. I said OK, so at some point he's going to die in this episode because Negan was looking at both of them like I could stab y'all. Now then, Negan is playing the long game. He's trying to stay safe. I don't know where his end game is aside from. Him to quit fucking with him.

43:48 Aside from making sure Annie and Joshua would get there safe because I that's the only reason Negan ain't went off on any of these people. That part. That and that's the only reason I could see 'cause y'all keep the number one. They keep threatening them with oh they'll be hearing this my next week. What you say they'll be there next week or some shit. So I'm AI got you by the balls until next week when they come and then from there, what what you going to do? Are they coming safely? Are they going to ride safely? Are they going to like what? What's the deal 'cause it's going to be something else once they ride? Negan is kind of playing it close to his chest, but you see every time, every time the Croat speaks to him, you can text Negan is imagining bashing his head, but he he keeps his cool.

44:36 But he you also notice he's starting to play the Croat because I think he can see the Croat has some, How do I want to say it? I feel like he has some insecurities when it comes to the Dhamma because he feels like he and the Dhamma are partners. But like Megan said, she treats you like her red headed stepchild and she really does. She treats, she treats the Croat like he is the thing on the bottom of her shoe that she has to scrape off. And I know it. I know she probably found some bleach somewhere after she kissed his head last week, last week. Because she just seems like she tolerates him. Yeah.

45:22 And, you know, I mean, it's her fault. She was one that saved him and gave him peanut brew. But. But Negan is sitting there trying to, you know, kind of cast some doubts. And then he says, Hey, how about this? Let me go into the let me go into the park, let me find him. He was like, if I see any new Babylonians there, we'll kill him. If the, you know, if the, the forest hasn't gotten them or if the park hasn't gotten them yet. So the Croat thinking he's smart, he sends the big stupid dude with *** and I call him stupid because anybody who takes Glee and oh, I'll kill him for you, you, you dumb, you dumb because you just let me, you know, right then and there you are easy target to kill. I will have no qualms about killing you later on. So they're going through the park and stupid is asking dumb questions and just being just an ass. And there's this little tunnel that they have to go through and it's it's, you know, it's surrounded by like, overgrowth and all this other stuff.

46:31 And so he looks at Negan and he looks at, I think Negan has a spear. He was like, after you thinking, OK, yeah, you're not about to stab me in the back. So they go into this tunnel and I'm looking and I was like, yeah, this dude is not going to make it out this tunnel. Especially once the walkers who are trapped in the vines and the overgrowth start grabbing for them 'cause they're grabbing for me. Way bigger than Negan. Negan, kind of. Yeah, he's right his way out. So as Negan is trying to pull them off of him, he's like, oh, I could put them in his way. Let me do this and the dude is like help me, help me and *** gets out and looks at him.

47:19 He was like you traitor, you motherfucker. Traitor to who? *** wasn't loyal to you or y'all at. All and has never been. This is. Your fault. You were the one who thought you was about to get over by sending him in first. Because in your mind you're like, OK, if there's anything in that tunnel or anything on the other side of the tunnel, they gonna get him first. Dude. You don't realize Mika has been dodging. Look, Mika has been dodging death for a very long time. You just walked right into that trap. Mika had no problem going first. No problem. She let me, let me too, right, 'cause Mika's gonna find a way, even he gonna find a way to get his self away. Right, but now he gonna.

48:09 Find a way. But not only that, Negan knows that dude is not about to stab him because then that dude is going to have to deal with the Dom. And like I said, I don't know why she's so big bad and, you know, important that everybody's scared of her. But I don't think if if they know that Negan is her new boy toy, so to speak, they're not going to touch him. So you did yourself a disservice letting him go through that tunnel first. Absolutely. You put yourself on the chopping butt. But eventually. Because, and this the thing, because if you're the first one to go through and and and say, yes, they're in there and they're dormant.

48:51 So it's taking them a minute to, you know, wake up basically. And so if you go through first, you don't, you know, got through a little stretch. It's the next mother fucker who coming through who is like, Oh, there's a person. 'Cause they're gonna be in a. Birthday every time. Yeah, they're gonna be in a party by that point. Yeah, 'cause they didn't get one, but oh, here comes something else. And look, that dude is a lot bigger than me, baby. He got limo meat on them so. Those they had them a good meal, right? Right. But I want to know how the fuck he got a part of that without getting bit up. Why did he? He got bit up and scratched up.

49:32 You could see it. He was bit on this side. He was scratched on this side. I think he has something else over here in his stomach. So he was damaged, but I mean, he was close enough to the exit where I feel like he could have gotten away and probably didn't. And he did have his own spear. And I think that's one of the reasons why the girl died so quickly, because he stabbed her in the leg, which you wouldn't think she would die that quickly, but if that blade had Walker blood on it, then it would have killed. Her quicker and there's a main artery in your leg. So depending on where he stabbed her, yeah, I could see it. That's that was my thought. He stabbed that main artery, right? And that's what killed her.

50:13 Well, he didn't. Even have to 'cause when he did it, you, you saw all the blood start gushing out. So she ain't had that long any goddamn way. But like you said, what was the whole point? And I I understand he probably thought, oh, these are the kids that NIA saved, not knowing who they were. He probably, if he was there when Herschel was captive, then he probably recognizes Herschel, which is probably why he went for the other girl instead. I mean, why he went for the girl instead because he didn't know who that was. But yeah, so unnecessary. But then he's about to try to kill Herschel, and Herschel pulls out the gun that he finds in Jenny's bag, 'cause he found Jenny's bag while they were running around from the walkers. And he tells Herschel he was like it. He was like, what if you know how to use that thing? You'd have done it already.

51:10 And then he tries to, he tries to get him with the spear. And that's when Negan drives his spear through his heart. Negan was like, I'm not gonna make no, no mistakes. I'm gonna kill your ass dead for sure. But then, like we said, he and Herschel come face to face. Herschel has a gun. He looks at him and he shoots. And I was like, or shoots at him, I should say. And then next time he looks up, Negan is gone. But you ain't gonna get 2. Chances to shoot at me? I mean, I know I told you when you were a little kid that if, if that day came, I'd be ready, but I just realized that I'm not ready. Like what I told you when you were 8 doesn't apply. This is not Kill Bill.

51:57 This is not the bride saying so when you're ready, in 20 years, I'll be with No, this is not that, that moment. Baby. But then Maggie sinks herself in deeper because she finds Herschel. They have the girl. They take her back. And, you know, she's asking Herschel questions because she hears that she heard the gunshot, but Herschel had told her no, that wasn't a gunshot. And then he tells, yeah, that, you know, tells her about what happened in the thing. He was like, yeah, no, she got stabbed by somebody else. Well, who was it? It was it was one of the Croat's men. And then he got killed by somebody. And she was like, by who?

52:40 And he was like, Negan, Negan, Negan was there. What was he doing? What did he say blah blah blah blah blah blah. Your focus back on Negan. And not in a good way, because your son was literally just missing. He just barely, truthfully barely survived that encounter. Because if *** hadn't have come again, if *** hadn't have saved his life, he would be on the ground. That dude would have killed him. Because that dude likes killing children. It has no qualms about it. But you sitting here obsessed, where did he go? What did he say? Did he tell you? Is he with the crow at blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah And Herschel's like, I don't know, I don't care. I didn't get a chance to ask him because I don't give a fuck about *** I don't.

53:29 Care at all and mad mom. I don't care. And she, she's like, OK, OK, calm. Why are you going to tell him to calm down? And you, the one that's worked up, Did you not hear him say that Negan killed the dude? So IE Megan just saved my life yet again. I thought you wasn't coming to New York for him. Maggie is getting on my nerves. She need to let it go. She. Need to let it go because at this point it's been how he's supposed to be. 13 so 13. I think a little bit, I think a little bit older than that. I think he's probably maybe 15-16 around this time. Between 13 and 16 years, she has had to get over this. Yeah.

54:24 And I'm. I don't know. And there is a there is a way to. Get over. I don't want to say OK. Now get over, there's a way to. Come to. Terms and move on. Come to terms with. Yeah, there's a way to come to terms with it, because my thought is at the end of The Walking Dead, Mika had a conversation with her. We. And she had a conversation with him and she was like I forgive and no what she said I she forgive, she forget, but she don't forget basically OK, but no she. Can't wish. What did she say? She can't forgive him, but I But I do see that you're trying and I can try to. And she was like, but if, if I you know, but if I see you around and I'm still angry, you gonna have to give me that. Oh, OK.

55:19 But but the man, first of all, the man full out apologize to you. Not no bullshit apology. I'm so sorry for what I put you through. I'm so sorry for what I did to you with tears, with genuine, sincere tears. This man has felt it. OK. So again, I'm not saying you got to get over it, but it's her experience from last year after your son got kidnapped and he kind of went off on you. If that didn't tell you that you needed to find a way to come to terms with it, then you are not really paying attention. And I mean, like I said, I know, I know it's your grief.

56:00 I know it's grief. I know that she was a. Lot over because you saw. It so I understand but at some point as a mother you have to ignore your pain and focus on your children is what we do all the time. Not saying that is healthy. But. Don't scar your children. Don't screw your child up because you are screwed up. That part. You're supposed to make things better for him.

56:42 You're supposed to because. The world already fucked. Up. You're supposed to make things better for him. You because all she doing is showing him. If somebody do you wrong, hold on to the grass feather like you. You not leading by example at all and it's one of those. It's one of those weird things because I mean, grief is a weird thing in and of itself. You and I know this, it's a weird thing in and of itself, but at some point you got to put your, you got to put 1 foot in front of the other and you have to, you have to push out. I'm not saying she needs to forget. I'm not saying she needs to forgive, but this man continuously shows up for you, saves your son several times, has saved your people when you abandoned them. Like, I'm not saying he deserves a big medal, but. Damn it, he at least earns your respect. You.

57:54 Wouldn't even say respect. He has earned a little bit of grace. Yes, he has earned a little bit of grace because here's the thing, And, and this is the same thing like with the Dhamma and with the Croat, you're trying to take turn a man who is obviously trying to be a different person. He has made mistakes. He has made huge mistakes. He's made ugly mistakes. He is trying to do something better. He's trying to be a better person, but y'all keep trying to put him back into that old space. Y'all keep trying to make him back into this ugly person for various reasons.

58:38 I know the Dhamma and the Croat are doing it because they want power. Maggie keeps throwing that guilt on him because she needs it, because what is she going to do without it? Who is she without it? Because at this point, I don't even remember what Maggie was like before all of this. You know, I remember she was a fierce friend. I remember she was loyal. I remember that she did know how to laugh. She didn't know how to have fun. You don't see any of that, Maggie, and you haven't seen it in a long time. She. Need to get us? What'd you say you. Need to get her some.

59:20 Well, we we've already said that before. I think we said that first season and we probably said it towards the end of the main show too. Here we go on this episode. I mean this season, but but this is what you're showing your son. Your your son is not seeing another version of you. And that is so sad because that made some very easy to manipulate. Which we have just found out. Which we have just found out. Right, so. But anyway, so while all this stuff is going on in the park and why Maggie is looking for Herschel, you have Curly's people in this place with the foragers and Pearly is trying to be nice.

1:00:10 OK, When he came up with the join the new Babel I was like Oh my God, if you don't shut up. I felt like Maggie, like, can you please stop with bullshit? He was like, look, we can offer. We can offer each other something. And Maggie was like, they don't need nothing from you. Like they have survived here for 20 years or however many years. They don't need nothing from you. They showed up. They was just. Fine, they are doing fine. They look well fed. Then I have no look, they could have been the type of of people that when they saw y'all, they could have killed y'all on site and probably went back and had some more cookies or whatever it was they were baking. They they could have done that.

1:00:55 They also did not have to invite you into their dwelling to save you from the walkers. So obviously whatever they're doing is working and they're managing to hold on to some of their humanity on top of that. Leave them alone because y'all obviously don't have it because Nevaez is in the background talking about Oh yeah don't you see it? We can, we can add them to the Army, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And probably it's like, don't you see it? We, we could do that. Da, da, da, we could do the same thing we did in Roanoke. And I was like, oh, what did y'all do in Roanoke? Because the fact that y'all mention Roanoke is suspicious to me. Because what happened in Roanoke, VA, years and years and years and years ago, all the people disappeared and no one ever knew what happened to them.

1:01:44 Oh, is that what y'all did? Did y'all do that too? Did y'all go in there and, and, and, you know, conscript people and get rid of the people? What did she say? We did? We, we divided them. And then, you know, I think they convinced one side and they, I don't know, they did some bullshit. And so she's sitting there conspiring, trying to do it again. And Curly finally grows some balls and remembers that he outranks her and he was like, stand down captain or whatever she is. And she's like, OK, I was like, yeah, she gonna do some shit. She getting on my nerves, nervous.

1:02:24 Yeah. Yeah, this getting on my nervous. Yes, yeah, she, she is. But their little ritual that they have when when they bring the girl back and Curly actually offers them some medicine and the leader, Roxana, she refuses it. Now this is my thing. I understand. Y'all have your own, you have your own rituals, you have your own culture and all this other stuff. If I was that girl on the table, I would be pissed because I'd be like, they have a way to save me or to help me. And you just going to tell them no?

1:03:06 Like, oh, when I first met, when I first met them, when all this stuff went down, she was on a fourth grade field trip. They all were we're all together and it'll be all right. Bear chicken saved my life. Excuse me that part that part made me mad look modern medicines and me, but give me the drugs keep right. That part made me mad because it felt like that that was a very prideful thing. I feel like because rather than I guess in debt themselves to Pearly, which I'm sure they probably would have tried to leverage it, but still, you're talking about a girl's life if if you could have saved her. But no, you need another person for your Walker pool outside. So they have this really intimate ceremony that Herschel actually takes part in.

1:03:57 And I don't know what it was about this girl or what it was about that girl. I think, well, no, let me see. I know what it was about her for him. I think the the appeal was she was a part of this new world. You know, this untouched on, I guess you could say untainted version of people like, you know, you have people like Maggie and and and Pearly and Novaeus or I think that's her name, Novaeus. They're all trying to bring back the old world. And these people are not trying to do that. They're like, look, this is what the world is trying to leave us alone. Let us, we have adapted. We are OK, Let us.

1:04:40 And I think that's what kind of struck him with her. That's why he was trying so hard to kind of connect with her, because she wasn't like anybody else that he knew, You know, these people. She was a young kid. She was a young kid, that's what I'm saying. But she's grown up in the wild, you know, she hasn't. They haven't tried to redomesticate themselves. They're like, oh, OK, we we stuck here in the park. We're going to adapt and we're going to figure out ways to learn and thrive. And I think, again, going back to what I was saying earlier, I think that appeals to him because that's all he's ever known is this type of world. He doesn't want to do the normal things like Maggie used to do or what they used to do back before the world ended.

1:05:27 So I think that appeals to him, you know, but then they, you know, they, they do the ceremony and then we find out why the walkers will walk around with no hearts because they take the hearts out. They put the people outside so they can join the Walker her and then they feed the hearts to the walkers, which I guess in in in kind of a way is kind of like a sacrifice, but it's also like giving a part of that that person's soul back to the others of their I I don't know. I just want to say the heart ain't big enough for no fucking walkers to share. That's why I was only a few of them. What you grabbed it that that's got on my nerve. I said now you all know damn well 'cause So when he grabbed the heart and he's eating on it, then he move over to the side so the other Walker could get some.

1:06:21 Now I think the other Walker was kind of pushing himself in me. I. Said. That heart ain't but Disney that's a meal for one while y'all trying to have it be a GroupMe a a buffet. Yeah but you know what? The way that she looked when they put her out and the way her heart. Like the heart was still fresh but she looked like she had already been dead for a year. So I'm gonna assume that heart probably started to go bad very quickly. And maybe once it tastes like a dead person, they're like, OK, you know what? There's no doesn't it doesn't have that fresh blood taste anymore.

1:07:01 So we're just going to take a couple of bites and then go about our business. Yeah. See what else we can find. Let's go find us a monkey or something. Not a monkey or something. I I mean, yeah, but going back to the Dharma, because I think that was really, yeah, the foragers were interesting and stuff. But again, I just have this feeling, you know, whenever our people encounter new, a new group, those people dying, I mean, Maggie is part of that because last season we had that whole new group. They have been surviving. They have been surviving fighting with the Baratzi and then Maggie and them show up and they all die. So I'm not gonna get too attached to these people 'cause I have a feeling they're not gonna be around for very. Long Nah now we probably got 3 or 4 episodes with them. Wait, no, I give it. 2 episodes.

1:07:59 So this was one. This was one. OK, that's what I was about to ask. Are you saying two additional episodes? Are you saying you know? People don't really last past two episodes cause who have we had to come on that You can think of that still here besides Maggie, me and Herschel. Well, the Barazi, but yeah, in it. But you know what? Maggie and Megan haven't really well, Negan has been there and we already see that somebody got off this episode. So yeah. Yeah, But I I don't I don't think the forges are gonna be around. I'm kind of like you. I give it to maybe the next episode.

1:08:40 If they survive past the next episode, I will be surprised. I would. We're going back to the Dahmer and her manipulation. I think it was last episode. We were trying to figure out what it was she did before the fall because she is so good at manipulation and at just kind of weaving her words and making them stick. Because again, like I said, when Herschel talks about her or when he talks about New York, his face takes on this really dreamy. I, I don't know, it takes on a very weird quality. And I, I, I give it to to Logan Kim, the actor who's playing him.

1:09:35 He's doing a great job with that because it unless you're really paying attention to his face like that, you probably wouldn't even notice. But he has certain facial expressions that you see when he's around certain people or when he's when he's looking at certain people even because even with Jenny and Jenny is another thing. Jenny is weird to me because you spent all this time mad with Maggie, acting mad, giving her the silent treatment, telling her you're not my mom and all this stuff. But every time you look at her and her should interact you, you got a little bit of jealousy on your face.

1:10:20 And then you got a little bit of anger because she was over there listening to Novias a little too intently for my for my taste. I was like, but you know, you know, Novaye asked me in the background, scheming and plotting. So and don't tell them what the hell she could possibly could have said. But that's what I'm saying. Jenny was paying attention to her and remember when was Novayez was talking about, talking about trying to ambush the foragers. So I'm like, I hope Jenny is not about to be a part of that. I need Jenny to set out 'cause then she gonna go snatch her bag back from Herschel, but he could have left it in the woods. He could have told.

1:11:06 He could have told Maggie. Oh, Jenny. Yeah, she. Got a gun? Where she get this going from that ain't that ain't one of our guns at the bricks? Because I was sitting here thinking. I was like, is that her bag? I think she stole somebody's bag. But then oh, oh, oh. Did she take it off the boat? She did take it off the boat when she was trying to rescue Maggie and and Herschel right when the attack started. Right? But guess who was looking for a gun when they got onto the island? The The virus, the. Virus, yeah.

1:11:46 I wonder if that's her bag, 'cause I don't think it was Jenny's, no. It's it's Jenny's bag, but her gun, because when she saw the bag, Jenny took the bag. Not Novias she would've saw. She's like, oh, my bag. No, she took the gun. Oh. OK OK, so that's why she had gun out for her again. New Babylon people are stupid. How it? Was it was during the the whole bombing when people was distracted and going 'cause remember she had reached out and was like oh shit, my gun gone. Yeah, but see Jenny? I don't recall her putting anything in that bag. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Yes I do.

1:12:28 I think I do. When they were still on the other side of the shore, Jenny was packing her bag and this was after Maggie. I think Maggie went to go. Either Maggie went to go look to see what the smoke was about, or this was right around the time that they were getting arrested. I think I remember Jenny looking down and seeing something and putting in her back. I'm gonna have to go back and look now 'cause I'm trying to figure out when the hell did she get the gun? And how would she have gotten it off of Novias? Cause Novias don't seem like the type that's just gonna be sitting there with her gun loose. My gun.

1:13:10 Yeah, right. Because she always so itchy for a fight or itching to be up in somebody's face. So I can't see Jenny just sneaking up and and taking it so. She she lost it. We know she lost it 'cause remember, she was she. Was yeah, that's what I'm trying. When did, when did Jenny find it 'cause we don't know she has it until after that. So, OK, OK, alright. So Negan comes out of the park, he goes back to the Croat and he tells them he was like, yeah, I can't remember the guy's name.

1:13:54 Stupid. He was like, yeah, there was, there was a little bit of an accident. We found ourselves in a bit of a thorny situation. And then the Croat looks down and notices Negan has blood on his hands. Now Thomas Sense would say Negan has something to do with this death, right? But I think if he would have questioned it, Megan could also say, well, we were fighting for our lives in there. I barely got away and that's why I have the blood on my hands. And he was trying to save them. Could have been any anything, right? And he did say thorns, like he, he meant that literally. So that could be.

1:14:37 But the Croat doesn't say anything. He just gives Megan a handkerchief. And he was like accidents happen. And I think he did that because he's like some of the old Negan is starting to come back. And I wonder if he did that on purpose, sent that guy into the park with *** on purpose because you all you could already feel the vibes between those 2. They did not like you just. Absolutely. Not and. The Crow had know how *** feels about fucking with kids. So yeah, ain't that why he got exiled? Yeah, I think that's why he got I I think he did that on purpose.

1:15:18 And then when Negan was the one who came out, it was like, yeah, you know, we found ourselves into this situation. It was an accident. But. But you were right. If the New Babylonians are in there, they're probably dead because of the big guy like him could be taken down. Yeah, right. Just looking at him like, alright, motherfucker, I see you. But I think that's that's what he wanted. But the crow had a suspicion of everything that Negan does. He always side ironing, you know, trying to see what he see. But he. Because he's trying to get the old Megan back. But that ain't gonna happen. We know that. Well, you know what? As much as he may want it to Megan. Megan, I am.

1:16:01 Megan Smith is gone now. You just got Megan Smith. Yeah. 'Cause that whole I am Megan, kneel and say I am me. But you're not. And I think that was actually from whoever it was that he defeated before he became, you know, because he basically overthrew whoever was in charge before. So I think that was something that was a theme there. And he just, you know, once he beat the other person, he, he kind of took it over because he was like, oh, OK, this is a way to keep them compliant. Yeah. Then I'll do that. I'll, you know, I'll stay safe because what did he say? The reason why he, the reason why he did that in the 1st place, I think was because the people at the sanctuary was suffering.

1:16:51 And so he did it to try to knock the other person out of charge, kill him so that the people would be safe. And again, from his point of view, that's what he was doing. He was keeping them safe. Now, he took a couple of liberties with that and he let that whole power trip kind of go to his head a little bit, which ended up biting him in the ass later. But yeah, I, I don't know why the Croat would want him back. Because just like he mentioned in this episode, he was like when I was exiled from the sanctuary. You trying to bring back the same man, that exile that exiled you, you trying to bring that person back? Why?

1:17:36 He want to get exiled again. It it must be something because if I was the Croat and Megan gets back in charge I would be worried especially with the way Megan has noticed. Oh yeah and the Dom treats you. She treats you like like shit. Oh no the Dom and I we are partners. Nah bro not from where we looking but why she? Always said that you do the grant work right but you're supposed to be you're supposed to be the smartest person you're the one who who figured out the whole methane thing like you Why why is you outside well, I don't want to protect I would want to protect the person who knows this operation because if that's the case just. Kidnap his ass kid kid.

1:18:30 You know such, you know shit. And say, hey, that whole setup you did over there, do that over there. But again, the New Babylonians, I don't think they really know what they are looking for. Because they dumb as hell. Because there's we have surmised based on the. We we, no, we we surmised this in the last episode Yeah, we yeah, when when y'all decided y'all want to take a fucking ferry across the dark ass river with the lights on like they weren't going to expect you. So we surmised that last episode, but you got people spying telling you what's going on. You got people spying telling you about the methane. Did the people who told New Babylonians, the New Babylonians about the methane, did y'all tell them about the the set up in the basement of the hotel?

1:19:26 Did y'all tell them that there were literally tanks and tanks and tanks and and tubing and pipes and glass and all this other stuff like this is not something y'all know. 50 people injured people, tired people are going to just up and carry out of Manhattan. And even if they were able to get to the methane. How you going to get it back and your boat blew up? How you going to get it back? Y'all don't have a boat? I and I'm pretty sure the Croat probably has one stashed around the city somewhere. But here's the thing. First y'all got to drain the tanks, then y'all got to take apart the tanks, Then y'all?

1:20:16 No. Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Let me go back. First you got to take the walkers out of the tanks. That might be in the tanks. Then you got to drain the tanks. Then you got to take apart the tanks. Then you got to figure out how you're going to move the tanks, because those things are not like. Hell no, I'm thinking. So you got to figure out who's going to move the tanks, who's going to be on lookout while y'all are moving the tanks and all those lookouts, are y'all gonna trust them enough to give them guns? Because if it's any, because if it's Maggie or any of her people that are there because, or not even her people, the other people that they've conscripted that are not New Babylonians, any of them motherfuckers might run. Yeah, so you gotta trust the people who are gonna watch you carry these heavy ass tanks out of the hotel. And then once you're out, now you gotta get away from the Boraxi and you got to get away from the walkers. And you can't run with those tanks. If walkers are coming after you.

1:21:19 Then you got to figure out where the hell to go. You got to figure out how to get. They did not think this through. Oh well. Or you can just kidnap the Croat and make him tell you how to do shit. Stealing one person is way better than trying to steal a setup. And I don't know why we didn't think about this when we were talking about this. The 1st 2 episodes, That's all you gotta do. Steal the Croat. Yeah, like have him. Teach you. But I said that in the beginning. I said that in the beginning when they pulled up. Why y'all just and why y'all always gotta take some shit?

1:22:00 Just answer, can you? Can you teach us 'cause that'll get you way further than trying to take over some shit. You already lost half your people. Well, you could have just said. Hey, what? Just wondering, right? And then at that point if he said no, then kidnap him but you, he might have been like shit, if you get your method, you'll leave my method. Let me show you how to do it. They're not looking at the grander picture. Y'all just thinking, y'all just gonna go take some shit 'cause you got a couple guns but you don't know what they have. If they smart enough to make methane, if they know how to make Walker bombs and they they know how to do all that, leave them alone.

1:22:46 Ask nicely. Do you think you'd be able to help us with our setup for methane? And if they say no, then you go back and kidnap to grow ahead. But at least ask first. Like, I don't think in this, in this world, they have courtesy cause a courtesy gives you any a courtesy would be like, you know, it, it might shock some people 'cause they be like, oh, you're not just gonna try to take it. Oh, you're gonna oh, oh it. Sure, I think it depends on the people, because that's true. That and not even the Alexandrians because they kept to themselves. Kingdom Hilltop, they had agreements with each other, even though Greg Gregy Gregory wasn't asked about it, but still they did have trading agreements.

1:23:34 And then once Rick and them took over Alexandria, they had trading agreements with them. And then there was what's a fourth community? Or they tried it with Oceanside, you know, so it's it's like it can be done. But as I explained in last episode, human nature, what we see, most people are going to be ugly and try to take first. And it's not just in The Walking Dead, we see it in any type of dystopian future. There's always those types of groups or factions. They're, they're always looking to oppress somebody. Like when the world comes to an end and you start building new societies, what's the first thing you try to do? Oppress other people, Separate people into two different groups and, and, you know, 'cause segregation and distrust. And yeah, like, like you said, they could have just kidnapped the Croat.

1:24:31 Matter of fact, that's a great idea. That's a great idea. Eat that for when the the apocalypse happens. Just just steal the smart person. And they probably would have to steal him because I don't think he would be the type to go willingly because the methane makes you the methane. Being able to make the methane, if he were to go out into the rest of the world or the rest of the country, that would make him one, a very popular person, but also a very dangerous person. But you but you also see the Dumber don't give a fuck 'cause she just let him go run around so the fuck about him.

1:25:17 But you know what? Because he has the barazi. And for whatever reason, the Barazi, probably because of the level of comfort that they have, because of the methane, they are the ones protecting him. So maybe that's why, because I can tell you if you if you just going to keep me in the same building and say I can't do anything, I can't go anywhere because you're scared something's going to happen to me and then to your methane. I wouldn't make any more methane. I would be like, oh let me get in this elevator and just jump out the building because if you gonna hold me prisoner anyway in a fucking zombie apocalypse, what point is there? Yeah, you're right, You're right. So you gotta give him a little freedom, make him feel a little important.

1:26:00 And, and here's the thing, he she probably made him feel very important up until Negan got there, because he talked Negan up so much that she built this whole elaborate plan like, oh, we need to get him out of all these people. That's the one. And it just all happened because the Croat just happened to wash up on my Manhattan trying to roll his ass back to Croatia. Really. You thought that was gonna work? But no, he said the boat crashed. I was gonna say, well, he that means he does have a boat somewhere. But no, he said the boat crashed.

1:26:41 So I I don't know. I just the New Babylonians are dumb. I don't like them. I told you I was. I told you I was gonna be a running mantra for these episodes. They are. They are dumb because now you're trying to you're trying to take the methane, which we have just established. I don't know how the hell y'all planning on doing that. But then not only that, but here you go. You about to try and force a whole another group of people who have been living in the wild for the last 20 years. You're about to try to force them to become a part of your collective. And I'm like, I don't know if this is what you want because yeah, y'all got they don't want no parts.

1:27:21 I don't think so, because something tells me these people know how to survive. They've been doing it all the time for you. Grace their doorstep. So, so I don't know, maybe the New Babylonians are the group that's going to end up dead. That would not bother me as much. This new group, they just sitting there minding their business, bake, baking 20 year old cookies that were in the cafe. So yeah, I just leave them alone, but I'm Novias isn't gonna do that. They gonna do that. They gonna do it. So like you said, I have a feeling we're gonna see them, probably one more episode and then that's gonna be it. Yeah, that's, that's, that's my thought. They they, they they gonna pull through one MO, one MO, one MO after that.

1:28:14 Oh, they were such a nice people. Right. 'Cause they don't give us, they never give us too much information about any groups. This one they give me information a little bit. Well, yeah, 'cause they did with that group from the last season. 2 What? What were they called the the the tribesmen or something? They're here today, going tomorrow, 'cause who remembers? Oh goodness, they. Wiped them out so quick and hell that even goes with the one who the ones who live. They knocked them out so God damn quick. Oh, we're not gonna talk about.

1:29:00 I mean if you is not a main character your your time is short here. We're not gonna talk about that 'cause I'm still mad about Nat's death. He could have. Been yeah, they they could have let. They could, they could, They could have. They could just let. Hear my boy. Anyway, what else we need to talk about for this episode? I think we, I think we pretty much covered it all, everything. But the main thing is the New Babylonians are stupid. They're they're dumb. They're dumb as fuck. Yeah, yeah. You ain't lied, no lies detected. So I, I'm, I'm curious to see how much more of the Dhamma and Herschel's background we're going to see and to see kind of where that culminate. Like I wanna know, does she actually have control over him? Or is this just angry teenager latching on to what nice old lady says?

1:30:01 And then we also have to figure out if she brainwashed him, why she take his toe. That I wanna know. I do wanna know that if. She brainwashed him. Why take the toe? Like, did you really need to have a souvenir that much? Oh, something to remember. Something to remember you by, bitch. He could have drew your pose a picture. Bad you don't want any pictures you want my goddamn tongue Yeah she she he didn't need to tell that's that's that's like a marvel reference Rocket always want the leg or the eye. You will you want something to me have no need for.

1:30:41 Right. OK, so Diamond Herschel, I wanna see where that goes at. At at some point, we we know Negan and Maggie have to come face to face. So again, it's gonna be interesting to see how that goes because I don't think, I don't think Negan is expecting Maggie to be there. But if Herschel is there, you gotta think that he he he. Either he knows Maggie is there or he knows Maggie is coming. That woman is not letting her show out of her sight too fucking far. She's just not well. If she's not paying attention to him, she could easily do so because she too busy focusing on other shit that she don't need to be focusing on.

1:31:32 I mean, you're right, but the same. I mean, we'll, we'll see. We. Gonna we gonna see so. Let's see, I think what we're on episode 3. We have five more episodes, which like I said, I didn't realize that they added two episodes to this season because we only got 6 episodes last season. So we got 8 episodes this season, which is cool because usually the, the shows are giving us like they'll start out with 10 episodes and then they drop down to 8, then they drop down to seven. So I'm, I like that we've got more. As of right now, there is no renewal news for, for season 3.

1:32:19 I, I don't know how that's gonna go. We know Daryl Dixon is already, they're filming season 4 already. So but but I think that show also does a little bit better in the ratings than than Dead City does. But it's Negan and Maggie. Something tells me that they probably will get renewed just because it's those two characters, because because even though I will say, even though Maggie is getting on my nerves, I do still want to see some kind of not even a it doesn't have to be a resolution between her and Negan. I just want them to come to an understanding. You know what I'm saying? OK, I'm not trying to, I'm trying not to be the person that you Remember Me to be.

1:33:04 Let me learn and grow and you know, whatever. And then I need you to stop focusing so much on him. Let this man be. Let this man grow. Let this man mature. Let this man do what he's going to do. Focus on your God damn kid cause please you are in trouble right now. Please. Focus on that little boy. Because somebody else has shown an interest in him that you never have. And not in a good way. Not in a good way. What I mean it, it all depends because we don't know if she's brainwashing him or teaching him to do anything bad. She's literally telling him stuff that he already knows and that he probably can't articulate. But she's like, OK, we just want to make the city great. You see the city the way it is.

1:34:03 So just show, just show me what your vision is. I can't say for sure right now that that's there's any evil intent in it unless she's, you know, Well, then again, this is flashback. So I was going to say, yeah, she was using him as a way to get to Megan. But I mean, she has Megan now. So I want to, again, I want to see kind of how deep that bond goes and what exactly the relationship is with him and her. We already know that he signaled to let them know they were coming. So OK. Alright. Hershel, you got any final thoughts on this episode? Kidnapped the Croat.

1:34:49 And on that note, that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media on all the social media at Phantom Hybrid. You can chat with us on our Discord channel. You can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.