The Walking Dead: Dead City Season 2 Episode 4 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #367

0:25 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I am here with Michelle and Casey and we are discussing season 2, episode 4 of The Walking Dead. Dead City, otherwise known as Ultimate Fighting Championship Walker style. OK, OK, I'm I'm gonna start this off with a very simple statement. Bruegel is weird. He is. He is very weird. Eccentric. He's just, you know, Yeah. I like that word That's eccentric is better. It's eccentric. OK.

1:06 I guess you just, first of all, you're keeping something in your in your room that you're feeding rats too. And something tells me that's not a Walker. Something told me that even before we got the reveal at the end, I was like, yeah, he was a little too controlled, right? Pulling that back, pulling that bucket in. Then he started munching on the rest and I was like, well, maybe it is a Walker. No, it wasn't. Not so much. Yeah, and it's like all throughout the episode, just different things that he was saying He, you know, when they're talking about the Walker and how he's winning so many, so many of the the little fights that they have with the other communities.

1:52 And then when he started talking about his bodyguard and how even after everything, the bodyguard was still a lawyer, I was like, then where he at? And I was like, oh, you know what? I bet you that's the bodyguard. But I thought it was a Walker, right? I was like, OK, so Tony, the bodyguard probably died protecting him. And now he's using him as the Walker to do, you know, to do the fights. And then stuff just started not adding up. I don't know if it was something that I was just hearing or if you guys heard it too. But when he was doing the match with the the first other Walker they were doing, did you just like some grunt grunting noises and like like when he was hitting the other Walker? I didn't.

2:42 Pay attention to that. I didn't either and I'm looking at it now. Like that sounds a bit human, but he moved. He moved a little like a Walker, but just like the other ones, I forgot who was, it was Megan. I think he was like, yeah, he moves kind of fast. He moves kind of quick. And I was like, well, we, we have seen some walkers move fast like that. Right. And Megan definitely has. He's seen one that like, crawled. On top of the trash. Can he was. Like, what the fuck? Yeah, so he's seen. So yeah, I was thinking, I said, OK, well, maybe he has one of those, you know, variant walkers or something.

3:26 Was not expecting that. It was the actual bodyguard, like the human bodyguard. And I was like, this just made me despise you so much more. Like, I didn't care. Like his character didn't bother me at first. I was like, OK, yeah, he's a little weird, but he's kind of funny and he's kind of, you know, he's putting a little bit of a Comic Relief to the whole situation. I was like, OK, I can deal with him. He can, he can live, 'cause you know, I want everybody else on the show to die. After I saw that, I was like, Oh no, you need to die of pain for death, Sir, 'cause. You've been cheating this whole entire time. Yeah, the whole time you like, kicked the phone out of their home. Right.

4:09 So I'm like, now we need to go back to there was another fighting episode. We need to go back and see if we can tell the difference. Yeah, I think that was the that was the episode where Christos lost that particular. He did. He lost that fight in. The museum. Yeah. So even he was like, some may right, Right, right. Because like *** said, this is a big Frankenstein type monster. Like something something's not right about. OK, so we know. But yeah, Bruegel is, he's weird to me. And I think, I think it's more so the way that he speaks because he's very obviously putting on this fake, you know, welcome and welcome and welcome.

5:02 I'm like, dude just cut through the bullshit. This was that way in the beginning to remember how charming and charismatic he was. And it was. It felt then too, so. But it's not like we haven't seen it before, and we know. People gonna put on the little showy show, you know, I know that looks like but I want to know what he did before 'cause he keeps talking about yes, I was I was big and important before and and blah blah blah. What did you? Do Yeah. So what were you? What were you but OK, Speaking of what people were we finally find out what the dollar was before this thing. She's she's a biter.

5:50 I really thought, what's his name? Pierce Milton 2.0. I really thought he was about to get killed. Baby, the way she looked at him like. She did not like being outed like that at all because he was like, Oh no, I know where I know you're from. And she's looking at him like, no, you don't. He's I was. Doing this research and block and you can see her face just change and she was like she and and she I don't know, she had some weird reactions too because she was sitting there like and I was like, oh, she about to explode. And she about to. Explode. And she was just like, I did him and it was just like *** sitting there looking at her like *** was getting such a kick out of it. And she knew he was getting the kick out of it because what does she do?

6:40 She brings up Herschel and the fact that she knows that Herschel is there because he was the one that sent the smoke smoke signal. Which we knew. We knew. Yeah, we knew that. I mean, we knew it. I mean, it's one thing to think it and to kind of, you know, suspect, but for her to confirm it, Oh, I knew our guy was involved the minute he said that smoke signal. And you can see Negan trying not to, He's trying not to react. He's like, what the fuck? Like what did you do to this boy? You took his toll. He's sending you. So smoke signals. They're here on the what what is going on? What is going on?

7:21 And he knows. I mean, he, he knows because he knows who the boy's mom is. And, you know, dama's like, very convincing and things. So he's like, yeah, OK. It's just not right. Little creepy, but OK. Right, like, OK, this is not right. He he's working with her. And I mean, but when he sees Maggie later on their first face to face, he's like, you can't trust Herschel, which I understand him trying to warn her. And he has a valid point. Maggie even knows that that something is not right with Herschel, right? But you really don't think she was going to take listen to that from you, right?

8:09 No, there has to be a point where. Maggie always gonna have blinders on when it comes to her show period 'cause that's her key, like we all do when it comes to her children. We never want to serious kill them. Think it's the fact that she has blinders because I really don't think she does. Because like I said in that first episode or that second episode when she noticed the blue Bandit, she put two and two together and she's been asking him questions like, Are you sure the city doesn't have a pull on you? Whatever, whatever I think the thing that bothered her in this episode was the fact that Negan knew and she only suspected.

8:51 You know, it's like how are how how are you? How do you know this? Like why do you know about my son? And I don't want to say she doesn't, but like I said, she. Is she's in denial. See, that's the thing. It's like she she does know, but don't really wanna know and don't really wanna come to that conclusion, which is like flashing lights. Flashing lights like, you know, and then someone else who hasn't even been around is telling you right, that he's doing these things. And you're like, Oh no, I do know, but I just don't want it to be true, honey.

9:31 And then you see, and then she sees the Dhamma and she realizes that that finally Herschel drew was of a real person. Cause Herschel told her that it was just a drawing. He did. He didn't tell her it was a real person, even though if you look at it, if you know anything about art, you knew that was a real person. That was too realistic for it not to be right. But Maggie. But then it was the way that once Dhamma saw her, she was like, OK and. But yeah, I know you're here. Baby. And I think that's what that's probably what freaked Maggie out. She was like, wait, she just looking at me like she's not calling for anybody.

10:17 She's not saying, hey, we have an intruder. She's looking at me like she. Already knew I was here and yes. And what you gonna do? Yeah, she probably don't know Maggie. Probably at that point, we know Maggie don't know the extent of the hold that Dama has on her, but Dama's looking at her like, even if she did know. OK. And what you gonna do about it? Nothing. Yeah, she probably at that moment though figure because they were in there and you know, Herschel was well, like, oh, I could, I could, I could cause a distraction or I could do such, such. I think she probably figured out like, oh, if this woman is real, then that's my, my son has seen her and my son went looking for her. I think those pieces are starting to fit together for her, especially after, you know, she has the conversation with Herschel earlier, right before that about the whole fire Firefly thing and whether or not his recollection of it is different from what she's told him all these years. And I think she's starting to really see how screwed up her grief has made her relationship with her child. It's like every time she's learning more and more and there are certain things I feel like she really isn't seeing. Like, when they start out the episode, Hurley, Herschel and Maggie, they are the ones who are going to go to to Manhattan to try to see if they can find

11:50 out where the methane is. And they start going into, like, a lot of stuff from the old world because Pearly is like, OK, so the museum should be two blocks from here. Herschel's like, how do you know all this stuff? And that's what Maggie says, oh, he grew up around here. And Herschel's looking at him kind of curious, so they start talking about different little things. He tells them about his brother, him and his brother cutting school. And, you know, we used to pull the fire alarm. And it was so funny because Herschel was like, what's fire alarm? And then Pearly and Maggie and looking at each other like. Oh. Wait, he doesn't know. And then they're sitting there trying to figure out how to explain it to him, because they probably haven't had to do that before. And they're like, it's a, a, a, a noise. And you, you pull it like, OK.

12:37 And then they start talking about other things. They start talking about candy bars. I think Pearly asked the question, what, what food do you miss the most? And so they have this conversation, He mentions the candy bars and they start singing the Kit Kat song. And I don't know if you noticed it. I think this was the first time. Herschel looked at his mom with a genuine smile. Because I don't think he's ever seen her be silly like that before. He has it. And and he, he's looking at her and he's smiling and she talks about the candy bar. And she was like, the last time I had a candy bar, I was three years in.

13:18 It was my birthday. And then she kind of gets quiet and he gave it to me. And we know she's talking about Glenn. And immediately Herschel's mood changes. And I was like, Maggie, you just missed a whole opportunity here. You could have that could have been a moment for you to to talk about his father without the sadness. You. I mean, that was a great memory, right? It was your birthday. Three years into a zombie apocalypse. Almost all the real food is gone and you find a candy bar and and you could have you could have turned that into such a positive thing for her.

14:00 So especially since you already know something's not right and you just, I was just like Maggie. What is it going to take for you to learn a lot? Cause her focus, it's like, but we said that before, like she, she can't, she can't see the forest from the trees. She don't realize all the damage that she's doing. You know what I mean? Her her focus is so vegan focused that you missing the the thing that's literally right in front of you. Yeah, that's how her she was feeling like I'm literally right here. Yeah. You don't tell me nothing good about my dad, Yo, You know, we our our focus has been on his death, never on how he lived, right?

14:45 Y'all know Glenn was Glenn was that dude? Yeah, You know what I mean? That's the thing that she should be teaching her so how amazing her dad was. But you so focused on the way and the manner in which he died that, yeah, I don't think, I don't think even at this point she could try to explain the good stuff about Glenn to him and he would get it. I'm I I'm just sitting here really wondering if she even remembers now. It's been so long as you have. You have so fist of that long grief. Yeah. And, and also, you know, we, we were at ATL Comic Convention earlier this weekend and we, you know, we did our usual Maggie panel. And there was something that I mentioned, something that I thought about last week before we did the panel. We always talk about Maggie and, and her grief and how she's just kind of, she doesn't know how to let go. And I hate to say it, all of that is Herschel's fault because from a very young age, Maggie didn't know how to deal with grief.

15:52 You know, she lost her. She lost her mom when she was very young. And what does Herschel do? Herschel goes out, gets drunk. He becomes an alcoholic. Maggie is pretty much left to fend for herself while she's grieving both parents. Because you're grieving your mom because your mom is not here. Now you're grieving your dad because your dad is just an absentee alcoholic father. Now things get better somewhat. He gets remarried. He has Beth. They have, you know, they're Sean. Everything is OK. Zombie apocalypse happens. Neighbors die, your wife dies, your stepson dies. And instead of dealing with that grief, you like everyone in the in the barn because you think that they're just sick and the government is going to have a cure and make everyone better. It wasn't until Rick and his people got there and shame forced them.

16:48 Well, I won't even say shame for Maggie. Glenn was the one who told her this. She ain't right. This is crazy, this is sick. Y'all need to put them. Y'all need to put them out of their misery, bury them, move on. So I don't even think she knows how to deal with grief because she's never had a good example. And then, of course, once the barn happened, it's like everything just started. The dominoes started falling. You lose. Other people, you lose. What? What was his name? Otis, you lose. Patricia, you lose. Otis. Otis wasn't really lost. Otis. Well, but he was her family still, you know what I'm saying?

17:29 And and she doesn't know the truth. She probably still doesn't know the truth about what happened. So it's been one thing after another after another after another, and she just don't know how to deal. Herschel was not a good example for her. And unfortunately, she's passing that on to her son. And not only her son, you got to see Jenny got a little bit of it too, even in this episode, because here's another child that is in your care that you're supposed to be responsible for. You don't even know this chick is running around with a gun. You know, just. But you know who does?

18:11 What does she got a gun? Your favorite person in the world? It's the iro. I want her to die. I want Novias to die. I want her to die a painful death. Even though I would say she wasn't all that bad in in this episode. She got a little snarky with Pearly. And then I think she saw an opportunity with Jenny again. And you know what? It struck me. I was like, oh, this is kind of sort of how the Dahmer got in with Herschel Novius is getting in with Jenny, 'cause she's like, OK, you got my gun. But let me tell you the history behind this gun. She was like, you know, I was when all this stuff started, I had family all around me. And then everybody was gone.

18:53 And I was by myself for a very long time. And then Governor Byrd found me. She gave me home. She gave me a purpose. She taught me the law. She gave me this gun. And when she finds out? To be an A hole too. Sorry, no. But you know what? She probably became that because she was she was back on her own for so long that could do it to a person. Or the power, but OK. That's that's something the power 'cause you see how she talks to take care though, talking, talking. To she's, she's just mad, 'cause he, she won't, he won't let her try to recruit those folks. But I, you know, when she's having a conversation with Jenny and she gives Jenny back the gun, 'cause she was like, yeah, you know, when people get murdered, there's supposed to be retribution.

19:46 She was like, that's what Governor Byrd taught me. So where's the rest? Retribution for you killing all the people that you don't kill? But anyway, she gives Jenny the gun. Jenny turns around and she was like, hey, so you said the guy who killed your father was on the island. And Jenny just turns and looks at her and she gives her like this slight nod. She says what's his name mean? And I said God damn it like how did you even Why would you even think that that out of all the people why are you focused on Megan? Nobody else 'cause she always because that way she know that damn Pearly is a liar and a traitor. But why would you even think of like it's been a year, y'all haven't even thought about Megan, Why would you?

20:33 'Cause everybody else thinking about Negan, so let's just throw his name in the pot. They all got reason to think about Negan. Everybody else. Who else could it be? I mean, that's where everybody. And especially, especially with Pearly, Herschel and Maggie being the ones to go off them, the ones knowing that Negan is the one to negotiate you. You don't think she like? Yeah, she, she might be smart enough to figure that out. I mean, I don't know how she couldn't even figure out how to. She couldn't even figure out a strategy of getting them on the island without including a boat. But anyway. She irritating, not stupid. No, she a living on the stupid side too. She is.

21:19 She just happened to be a little smart in this episode. Like she saw some stuff was off and she's like OK but. That's gonna be a problem for Pearly. If Jenny told her to answer, that's good. That's about to be a problem for Pearly. For real. Gonna be a problem anyway, 'cause hell, wouldn't he get picture on the? His photo was on the little one inside, right? It wasn't just his name. So anybody from it don't even have to necessarily be Levias. Anybody who sees him will know that Pearly didn't kill him 'cause it was like a whole warning post 'cause he. Was but everybody else is there in the thing. The only people who went to Manhattan was was Maggie, Maggie Pearly and Herschel.

22:10 But no, no, no, I'm saying the people from New Babylon, they was on that boat. They know Negan was wanted. Yeah, but nobody, I don't think anybody else cares. That. Whether he's dead or alive. Well, they all about the law. They do care that he's alive. That part 'cause if you told your people I killed me with my own two hands, they'd have framed you, you the, you know, the giant Slayer. And then they find out. I don't. I don't know if there's anybody else. Are there any other New Babylon people? Because we know that there are people that they conscripted from other communities. Are there any other New Babylon people with her aside from Pearly? Yes.

22:55 Who? Wasn't the mayor with them? She the one who got ate by the tree. Remember the woman I'm talking about? Who's there now? Like who else is wondering about *** Nobody else. Nobody cares about *** except for her, and I'm guessing she's probably only thinking about Negan because she's trying to figure out a way to get Pearly out the way so she can be in charge so she can make these. Yes, these people. So if it was her knowing that Negan is alive, once she confirms that she can then arrest Pearly and now she in. Charge, Yeah. So it matter, it matter she want to be in charge so bad.

23:37 You know how people who and what gotta be in charge gotta be in charge, you know, we all know them people I know. So it, it matters to somebody, matter to her. If nobody else it matter to her, 'cause then once she lock him up, Oh well, why did you lock him up? Oh, 'cause he said he killed me and he didn't. But here's my question. I wonder if she's going to be dumb enough to try to go after *** and once she is, once it's known that he's alive, like is she going to try to do that so that she can be? No, I don't know. Her focus is going to be Perly. Yeah. Her her focus is going to be Perly. No, I'm talking about after pieces when she gets perly out the way. Now you got to do something else to, I guess, kind of cement your position because, OK, yeah, you exposed him for the lie. But technically speaking, if Negan is still alive, he's still a wanted man.

24:35 So are are you about to be stupid enough to try to go after this man 'cause I'm sorry, I I get it to you. You know, you think you're big and bad and you got a mouth. You ain't nothing compared to me yet. But that, no, that's why she gave the gun. That's why she gave the gun back to Jimmy. She ain't gonna be the one to do it, 'cause if Jenny already knows me again, that's he's. She's one step closer to getting. So she can get rid of him for. Correct, because if he sees Novias, he's like, what the fuck is it and get the hell on. He don't know she's from New Babylon. No, I'm not sticking around for this, but Jenny, he or he'll kill her or he'll kill her.

25:18 Same thing as Maggie, though. Maggie can get close to me because of the, you know, it's the history, the history that they have. Yeah. Jimmy can't get close. Even if though she pissed off that she upset, didn't get close to me, 'cause of me. And see, remember last time he saw her, I killed your daddy. Get away. Go. Let them take care of you. So to find out she back on the island 'cause in that he didn't see her on the he only saw Herschel and Maggie, right. He only, he only saw Herschel on the boat. He saw Maggie for the first time in this episode. So yeah. He didn't see. He didn't see Maggie on the boat. Oh. I thought he saw her in the binoculars too. OK. OK.

25:59 So if he only saw saw Shershel, if he only saw her show. Yeah, he this gonna be his first time seeing Jimmy, so she would be able 'cause he'd be like, what are you doing here? Come, let me make sure you say. Yeah, I was going to say he he should be asking that question now 'cause you know, Herschel is on the island, Maggie is on the island. So, you know, at some point he's going to be like, well, where the fuck is Jenny? Did y'all leave her behind? And you know that's not going to happen because what happened the last time Jenny got left behind, she got her ass in that damn cool and rolled herself. Gross. The ever the ever the the Super is strongest cooler in creation. Girl, that it must have been an igloo.

26:41 It has to be. Don't. Get across the the damn river. Right. OK, going back to the Dahmer again. She need to die too. I don't unders I, I just. Gonna be a while before that happens. I understand it's gonna be a while, you already know. I feel like it, but it's, it's like at the beginning of the episode, she's in the back of the car. She's saying, you know, her little stuff. And again, every time, every time Negan doesn't give her the energy she wants him to give, she mentions his family.

27:28 She mentioned them what, 3 or 4 times in this episode? I was like, Lucille is about to go across your head, but she doesn't like even even when they're on the way to Bruegel, the Croat is like, why are we going over here? To kiss his ass? Like we hold all the cars, we hold all the power. We're the ones who got rid of the New Babylonians. Like what did he do? Nothing. Why are we going over here? She was like, well, we just won the battle. We haven't won the war yet. We still need his people. So we got to go play nice. Why are you even in charge? Why? And then you get in there to the dinner. Bruegel is clearly being condescending, even though he's like putting it off as charming.

28:14 This, this mother fucker is condescending as hell. And you're just still, Oh, I thank you for such for, for, for the, the gift that you gave me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why are you in charge? And then you sit down to eat and, and, and you let a little 20 something year old tell all your business about what you used to be and how rattled you are. And you are, you are clearly rattled because when you start talking about her, what what about the little drawing that you showed me? Who did you say did it? Oh, I think you said his name was her. Just she was rattled again.

28:59 Why are you in charge? You can't even hold it together when somebody calls you out. Megan sitting over there like, oh, this is fun to watch. Megan is taking notes. They all be here riding the Croat up. The Croat is getting all upset because he don't want to share the method. I thought about you, Casey. When Bruegel suggested, he was like, why don't we just build a second one and you share with us how to make it and we'll just go from there. That's what you should be doing, right? If if we all want to get along, if we don't have kumbaya moment. That's what I said. That was all. But the crow ass said fuck no and he. Said it with some force.

29:48 Absolutely not. But Brugal had a point. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, had a point. There is no reason for one. And that's the thing, having one person be the person over everything is how we get to cause it's always gonna be somebody coming for you. But if you have it and you have not saying they had to be on the grand scale that the Croat and I'm had it, you're gonna take the mini labs. You know, many, many, many Methane Studios mini ones. So you got one over here, one over here, so nobody can corner the market on it.

30:29 And then if New Babylon do come in and take over, they ain't got all of it right. You gotta go to all these places to secure it, you know what I'm saying? So he had the right idea. He. Did, but the crow hat didn't like it, and the crow hat was trying to follow. The crow hat is not in charge. Yeah, but I don't know, I'm almost to the point where I feel like he should be. He should be. Because I believe should be. I I just don't understand why the dama is so important. She clearly can't hold her emotions together now. Yes, she can do some manipulating. She she got that part down past.

31:13 She can read people very well though. She can read. People, but but readable enough to be in charge of everybody. You don't have the strength, obviously, you don't really have the show of force because let's be honest, the Baratsi, those are Croats dudes, right? I've never heard them take an order from her. So it's just I I don't under I don't understand what it is about her. Maybe maybe she just maybe she does have a way of manipulating all of them and we just haven't seen it. But I'm just like this this chick, like I kind of feel like when she does get undone, it's going to be on such a spectacular level because I feel like it's, she's not even going to expect it.

32:08 Cause Negan is obviously taking notes and paying attention, you know? Yeah. And I think even the Croat is, you know, he's paying attention. I think he's kind of, I think what Nina said in the last episode is kind of sticking with him about how she treats him like the redheaded stepchild, how she treats him like, you know, the thing on the bottom of her shoe. He's starting to notice this 'cause he's like, making suggestions to her. He's trying to tell her. OK, look, sharing the the methane is not good. By the end of the episode, you know, when they get ready to leave, instead of Megan sitting up front with him, she's like Negan, join me in the back. So you've basically reduced the Croat to a chauffeur. And again, none of your power, none of what you're offering these people would even exist without this man. Cuz who gonna make the call you?

33:04 That's the. Thing he he don't know his own damn power. I, I don't know, I mean, obviously he still feels indebted to her for saving him, but good grief, dude, this is, I don't know, can can we consider this like Stockholm syndrome to the NTH degree? It's. Good, because he he, he's blindly you, you could, even though she's the alpha in this relationship, he is very much a beta, Very, very much. He is one of those people who need somebody to tell him what to do. So even though he's smarter, he knows, you know, more than basically everybody there.

33:53 He don't have a alpha in him to lead, which is why even when Negan was the leader, you know, he's the lap dog. He don't know how to be a alpha. Yeah, well, I don't. No, I want to say he doesn't know how I was saying more so he doesn't want to be. Because when he stood up and called Brugal out in front of everybody, that was an alpha move. That was big Dick energy. To me that was just like frustration. I didn't, I didn't get Alpha from that. You didn't. I didn't. He literally just told everybody he was like, yeah, you cheating and I'm going to tell you how you cheating and no, we're not gonna do this. I mean, I don't I don't think anybody else would have stood up to Brugal like that.

34:38 To me, I I think that was more frustration than anything I didn't get I'm and I'm in charge by this is you know how it's always one, one person like I'm so tired of this shit. It was one of them. I'm so tired of this shit. Dude, I know you cheating. He had the potential. It wasn't a you know, I'm gonna tell you, I know you cheating. This is what you're doing. I'm about to take control of the situation. This is how somebody finally got frustrated and it's the outburst of I'm over this shit but. Here's the question. If we hadn't been introduced to the Dhamma, would you still feel that way? Because remember, we went the entire first season thinking he was the one in charge. He was very much acting like the alpha. It was when we.

35:26 Introduced to the Dhamma that we're like, oh, you're not the one in charge and that we've seen his behavior kind of change. But if we hadn't have been introduced to her, would you feel still? Would you feel still? Would you still feel that way? Yes, because even remember, even in the first season when remember how he was so boring, like when he saw me and he was like, oh, trying to get approval. Oh, do you see what I did for you? Oh, do you see what I did for you? Oh, do you see what I did for you? He was always, even in the first season, trying to get that approval from we didn't know about them, but he's trying to get that approval even from me again. Yeah, but ran him off and exiled him, all of that.

36:07 He still let me give me your approval. Tell me you approve of the things that I'm doing. So he was never going to be no alpha. He had that era of mystery where we OK, where where is this? But he was. But he did a good job acting like 1 because people thought he was crazy. That part. That part, so before he realized that he had some self esteem issues. When Negan came along, he didn't he didn't show that to everyone else. The Domino's because she know how to read people. Negan knows, but everyone else was afraid of him. So he was kind of like their alpha because they didn't know he was crazy. He did some weird things. Yeah, true.

36:50 Which also caused him that was scary. So it's not like we ain't know. Yeah, but they don't. But see, they don't know that he's that he's weak. They're just thinking, OK, we just don't wanna cross him, 'cause he does some he might. Put me in the tank next. And even, right, even even in the first season, I don't, I don't think Maggie was. So Maggie wasn't scared of him himself. She was scared of what they would do to Hershel. So yeah, I don't think there was ever for me. I don't think there was ever like a fear of him. It's the worry of I need to get my son back because you threatened to kill him if I don't bring you Megan. But I don't think she was scared of the Croat, you know what I mean?

37:33 Yeah, I'm scared of your threat. I'm not scared of you. OK, yeah, that's just my thought. But I mean, let's be honest, Maggie don't scare easily. She's. Scared for Herschel? I I know, but that's but I'm I'm saying as far. As how she's. Treating, yeah, in general, like 'cause even with Pope, like she was scared for what he would do to her people and for what he did to her people. But when it came time for her to go up against him, she was like, oh, no, we're about to go do this. We're about to go take this back. Like Maggie ain't never been one to back down. True. So, but OK, still going with the Croat real quick because was he the one that actually set the fire or was Megan the one that set the fire to the painting?

38:28 Herschel was OK. I thought that too, but then. All in that room together, remember? And then they all ran to go see where the thing was, and when it was knocked over, Dhamma saw the door close. OK, that's what I thought I saw, but I wasn't sure. I was like, OK, is he the one that said it? Because when she went to Negan, she went to Negan. Like she thought Negan did it because she was like, OK, they're smart and then they're stupid and, you know, whatever, whatever. And he was like, well, you know, he kind of played it off like he was the one that did it. So I don't know. But no, they was all together OK. 'Cause.

39:08 Then 'cause then remember when, when they were in that room, Donna saw the door closed, and then remember Maggie whistled. And so that's why Negan went and left. And I do remember that. And that's what was throwing me off, because I thought it was Herschel at first. But then when I rewatched it, for Donna to come at him and say, OK, you know what? There's there's, you know, there's what did she say? They're stupid and there's something else. She basically, it's almost like she thought that he was the one that did it or he was the one that that had it done, whatever. Because I'm like, OK, that painting went up fairly fast. So he couldn't have set it on fire when they were in there the first time.

39:54 But the the Croat kind of stayed behind then. So I was like, OK, so did he rig something? To make it go up. So that's why I was all all confused. Oh, that's what it was, she said. There's liking the underdog and then there's just being stupid. And he was like but. I thought she was talking for that. I thought she was talking about the fight. Oh. OK, see, I thought because they were in the room and the the fire was actively going, I thought she was approaching him. Like, did you do this? Like I know we're looking for in a distraction and some way to throw Brugal off his game, but this is stupid. Right. No, OK, No. I thought that comment was in reference to saying, remember, 'cause he was like, I could pick any Walker and they could beat your guy. And remember, that's when he got the guy off the tow truck who didn't have nothing.

40:43 You know, I was. That was my interpretation of it. OK, 'cause I would have thought if she would have said something like that, she would have said it while they were in the room. She probably would have looked at him and be like excuse what the fuck you doing? Like, yeah, no, I I took that as the Walker fight. Gotcha. OK. Because remember he was, he was in in the Walker fight. He was like, we don't need that. We don't need and remember he just put the oil on him. And see, I thought that was, I was thinking that was just a distraction, like, Oh yeah, let's do all this stupid stuff. Let's make Bruegel actually see. I thought it was distraction too. So that's what I thought. And then of course I. Just played it again, yeah. So, OK, But yeah, you saying it's Herschel? That does make sense because Herschel was supposed to find a distraction.

41:34 He just, he set the paint on fire. And then went to go find his other Mama girl. I'm telling you that I don't know. I just and and the way she was with him, she was like, well, listen, this is my surprise was like, OK, this is. I don't know. I was surprised you knew he was coming. I know, but maybe there was a small part of her that thought, OK, you know what, he's back with his mother. Maybe, you know, maybe there was a small part of her. Not even a minuscule part.

42:20 Right. Especially after he set the fire, you knew he was there. You knew he was coming. So I mean, she got her hooks in them. Hook the hooked hook. She definitely does, right? But let's talk about this conversation with Megan and Maggie because, again, this is the first time they've seen each other for a year. And when he sees her, was I the only person who felt like he was happy to see her and he was hoping that she was coming to rescue him? He seemed to give off that vibe a little bit to the point where she was like, I'm not here for you.

43:04 I was like, oh, OK. Yeah. She. She tried to make it real clear, but he was so soft spoken with her. And I was like. Negan thinks she coming to break him out. No. I, I think Negan's always gonna handle Maggie with kid gloves, you know, always he, he like, 'cause even like Herschel said, he feel like he owe her. So he always gonna handle her with kid, kid gloves even, I think Maggie could be a total asshole to him and he's still gonna be like, oh, you know, you know what I mean? She's she's gonna have that soft, I mean, he's gonna have that soft spot for her. Yeah, but I don't know, I felt like, I mean.

43:45 It's getting old. I felt like that was a little different, though. I like he was really looking at her like, oh, you can't. You came back for me. She's like, no, I, I came back 'cause I, I need you to give me some information. He was like, the fuck? He was like, don't you, Don't you notice the pattern here? Like you keep you, you keep talking about how you hate me and you keep doing this stuff, but then you got to come come to me for help. You come to me when you need me. And even with Pearly up at the top, Pearly was like, look, we got much time. We need to know where the methane is, blah, blah, blah. He was like, yeah, whatever. I ain't talking to you, Maggie. I want to hear it from you. Maggie is like. 'Cause he has a soft spot for her which he will always have, nothing's going to take that soft spot away. I know, but like I said, I just felt like it was a little bit more hopeful at first.

44:35 My oh, did she come back to get me? Then when she was like, I'm not here for you. He had the immediately kind of, well, you know, I didn't think it was, you know, I thought it was weird that you would come back to get the guy that you put in here in the 1st place. But you know, she's upset because, again, here she is. She left him in a situation where she thought he was a prisoner. And when she comes back, he's free as a Terry bird. This ain't the first time. Because that's what happened when she got back, when she got to Alexandria. But then when he tells her the reason for doing what he's doing, she's just like, OK, I, I just need I, I just need to know where the methane is.

45:15 And he's like, I can't because I'm trying to protect people. And if I tell, they're gonna hurt those people. She's like who? He didn't even have to say anything. She was like oh, and he is Joshua. OK, well you know what, I actually do like them so whatever. But then he get but then. He gets he told her anyway, told her anyway. Yeah, like you said, we were just going to yeah, soft spot. But now I'm, I'm wondering how that's going to work because when the episode ends, Pearly, Maggie and Herschel, they, they have gotten back together.

45:57 They are on the roof. And Pearly asked Maggie, he was like, did Negan give you any useful information? And she looks like she's about to tell him. And of course the episode goes off. But now I'm kind of like, you don't need to say nothing in front of Herschel. You don't need to say nothing about anything Negan told you in front of Herschel, 'cause I feel like Herschel go run tail. Yeah, I think that's what the hesitation was. I don't think she wanted to. Part of part of her, believes Negan. Part of her. Believes him because she thought it before *** said it. Negan confirming it, I think just pissed her off because she's like, God damn it, if anybody else had told me that my son was working for the enemy, it would have been fine. But you, you got to tell me that because, you know, she probably feels like at some point Nigga's going to rub that in her face. But I don't think he would do that because of everything. But still, it's got, it's got to grate her nerves that Negan was the one who was like, yeah, so your boy, he helping out, he helping them out over here.

47:08 And Maggie's like, who are you talking about? But of course, everybody is coming back in. So. So he can't tell her. And then like you said, she sees the Dom and the Dom just looks at her like, hey, I'm here. And. And the and the issue. But, you know, like we said, the Dom is not strong, so I don't think she wants to take Meg in a fight. But and she owned it. I think Maggie is going to have a difficult time with the Dhamma because she knows how to get to Herschel in ways that Maggie doesn't. And I think that's what's going to happen. I, I don't know, I don't know if the Dhamma would hurt Maggie. I think she just, I mean, I don't know, she, she just wants Herschel because Herschel has a vision for Manhattan that nobody else has.

48:02 I get it. I don't think she will hurt his Mama, but I think she going to make Maggie. I think she's gonna make Maggie regret neglecting her son. She do that. Now she's, I mean, even more so, even more so because yeah, you, you have your, your own guilt. But even for Maggie, I, I just feel like that guilt is not, I don't think it's strong enough yet because you still doing you still doing some of the same shit. You have to be thinking something because your child be keeping things from you right? Are you got to be realizing that y'all don't have a close relationship?

48:47 That y'all don't talk? Your son let you, let you walk around for years telling the same old story that actually wasn't the story, that wasn't accurate. And why? Because he caught you crying and he wanted to make you feel better. He's the child, you're the adult. That part. That that's the whole part You're. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that because, you know, our children, they do that. They see us sad. They try to make us, you know, they try to make us feel better, they try to cheer us up. But Herschel has had to do that his whole life because Maggie can't let go of, of what happened. And he, I'm, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to do that with the nama.

49:33 So yeah, Maggie's going to have a difficult time from this point on, especially now that she has a face, like an actual face. Like you know that this is an actual person. Yeah. So now you know your son's been lying to you. Does the city have a pull on you? No, no, it's not the city. It's a person. It's a it's a person. I, I need her to get it together. But you know what, I like the conversation that she and Pearly had. Pearly is not getting on my nerves as much now because I think after the conversation they had today or in this episode, I kind of understand when, when, when you're a parent and you are worried about your children's safety, you want to do whatever it is that's going to ensure that safety. So I can't, I can't fault him for too much. You really were dumb telling them that Negan was dead though, 'cause you got to know somebody as charismatic as Negan. You.

50:29 He's not going to stay quiet for long. He's not going to stay hidden for long. So I think that's where he messed up. But even in this episode, he and Maggie are having a conversation and he's talking about how he's doing everything for his kids, he said. But I'm wondering, he said, I'm working so hard to bring back a world that my daughters don't even know. It makes you wonder, are we doing this for them or are we doing it more for us? And I think that kind of struck a nerve with Maggie because you do have to think about that, not just in the terms of what they're doing with the world or trying to get the methane or trying to rebuild. But she's got to think about that in terms of Herschel too. Like, am I doing all of this?

51:16 Am I being angry for for his sake or am I doing it for me? And obviously you're doing it for you because Herschel, it's, it's almost like Herschel don't even want to hear about his dad anymore because all he's going to hear about is the bad stuff and the fast stuff. But. Fortunately, because like I said, Glenn was a good dude. Yeah, and you could, you could have told your son about all the good things he did. But like I said, maybe it's gotten to the point where it's so clouded in her mind now because she's all she's remembering is the pain and the hurt and the anger. Like, can you even remember all the other stuff? Or has that been clouded over by the mean stuff? Do you remember the pharmacy wrong? Do you remember, you know, all the other stuff early on? Do you remember the prison?

52:11 Do you remember getting like all of those things? Or is it just *** *** *** *** *** Because I mean, there's so much and, and not even just saying she has to share, share only shit about Glenn. Cause keep in mind this is zombie apocalypse. So her time with Glenn wasn't that long. But you still had a old, I mean, you still had an aunt, you still had a grandfather. You still had. She grew up. Tell him how to live that world life. Tell him about that life. Yeah, your main life. Things that they did right. And things that he doesn't know about. Yeah, like fire alarms.

52:51 Yeah, yeah. And just like he was saying, I, I just don't see what's so good about the old world anyway, because you, you haven't been told about the good stuff in the old world. No, he hasn't. Yeah, we you, you. You haven't been told anything about anything except the fact your daddy died, right? Everything else, right? And that's heavy for us adults to carry. I mean, we see how she's carrying it. You putting it on a child? Herschel is what, 1516? But he's been hearing this all his life. And I'm sure he's over it like girl. Very much the. Song right, like the whole point we tired of it.

53:36 We we you got die hard Glenn fans team Glenn all day all day. But even some of U.S. team Glenn folks is like, OK, we get OK, damn we get it, we get it and for cause. What's Herschel religious or am I remembering that wrong? Kind of sort of but but, but my thought is for for for your dad to be somewhat religious forgiveness that that was a lesson you skipped. I but I don't think, I don't really think Maggie was. I think Maggie, because when we met her, I think Maggie was even then kind of sort of a little on the angry side, you know, because she had lost her mom, then she lost her stepmom. And then, like I said, you, you're dealing with Herschel being a drunk and then this thing happens to the world. You lose your your stepmom, you lose your brother, you lose your aunt, your sister tries to kill herself. I mean, it's a lot.

54:47 Yeah, true. It's a there's still other things that she could be focused on. I'm just saying. I and I agree. That's all I'm saying. Like we said, damn near 20 years later, you you can't. You got to let that go. You're she's poisoning her, not just her son, she's poisoning herself. Yeah, so and I, I I'm glad she had that little confessional to to pearly where she was. Like, I know I seem hard all the time, but inside I'm terrified. Finally, I'm so glad you said it out loud because somebody needs to be able to look and see through all of that.

55:29 And I think her admitting to Pearly that Negan was the one that killed her, her husband, I think Pearly may understand her a little bit better now. And he's like, OK, we got to figure this out. We got to stick together, but we got to do this smart. And I was like, OK, probably you might be all right. We'll see now. We'll see. I'm just saying, right now he is he is probably second on my list of characters to hate on this show. No, you know what? No, because I think Novias is first. Yes, she is. The Dhamma is second 'cause she just irritates me to no end. I don't understand why she's in charge. So I'm, I'm irritated by that.

56:16 And then maybe Pearly, 'cause I will say this for the Croat. I don't, I don't think I've ever hated his character to the point where I was like, you, you need to die. I just, I, I don't know he's. I find no point in his character. Like I don't wish him to die, but like, I can give or take. Yeah, I can give or take him like I'm like I maybe would change in the future or something, but right now I'm like you could be in there for sold or not, I don't really care. Yeah, and why is this his face all the time? Right. It is because it is. I'm sorry, it is. He always got that that eyebrow furrow. Because he's realizing, I think as more and more time goes by, he is realizing that he is not as high up on the totem pole as he thinks he is.

57:10 Like he told Negan in the last episode, he was like, the Dom and I are partners. I don't think she looks at you that way. Even when she talks to Negan at the beginning of this episode, she was like, This is why we needed you. She said he's too emotional, he's too volatile. We need to make these negotiations work. We need to keep a calm head. And she was telling him, I need you to keep him. I need you to keep him calm. She's treating the the Croat like he's a child that needs to be handled, that needs to be babysat. And I think he's really starting to see that like, OK, she really is not treating me the way a partner would treat me. Because if that was the case, knowing where their power comes from, she wouldn't even consider Bruegel's plan. If she was his true partner, she would discuss it with him first and be like, OK, so is this smart? Is this something we can do?

58:08 Like, is this going to be a problem? No, she didn't think about that. Because she don't care. I know. She'll give a damn about him at all. But I think now he's starting to realize she don't care. Like, really, really realize. But, you know, that's, again, that's kind of that manipulation that Negan is doing. Negan is planting those bugs in his ear. Yeah. She treating you like her redheaded stepchild. Why does she talk to you like that? Ain't you important? Apparently the fuck not. That's an Adama. He important enough to make the meth, make the methane and get that got it 'cause he's not getting the results. You know, Bruegel was trying to get the the second facility. Megan figured out a way to get around that because Megan also suspected something wasn't right with that fighter. So you put in another fighter, you kind of sweep the odds a little bit, and then when the fighter gets real close to you, you happen to look up and realize, oh wait, those are human eyes I'm looking at.

59:16 Yeah, 'cause when he pulled his arm to hold him, the guy was like. Yep. Yeah. So you whisper a little some some in Bruegel's ear, and all of a sudden Bruegel's like, yeah. So you know that thing I said I wanted to do, I don't want to do it anymore. We're good. We're good, been caught. No. Conditions. But then you should play that. You should play that better. Like you can't always win. Yeah. So you occasionally to put a Walker. Occasionally gotta put a Walker in, though. Like a real Walker. Say he can't kill his friend. Yeah, but he can put occasional, like when the beds are bite. Did he at the end? No, at the end he used his friend. No, she's saying before that.

1:00:04 Yeah, when you having these matches, because then it starts to be like, hmm. But he was only doing it that like that wasn't his friend. That was that was his means to an end. That was something that was helping him. The way he killed him so quick at the answer why? We were so close. You've been like, like, he is human and you've been heating, feeding him raw rats, raw rats, raw rats. You've been having him dress around, dress up and act like a fucking Walker so that you can win all the riches and have the nice suits and eat the nice food.

1:00:45 I mean, even even they had cooked a rat. I mean, and this man gets close to *** which you got to blame *** for That *** was the one who kind of weaved his way in there. That wasn't those fault. But he's right. You're my secret is up they and they know or if if not, they know Negan knows and you know someone knows. Negan can use that to his advantage and brew was like, Nope, we're not going to do that. Nope, I've already lost enough and he slit his throat. I was like, I felt so bad for. For that was so quick so quick but then he's like yeah, you know well I got a tip so.

1:01:35 Yeah, I'm not out. I'm not out of the game yet. And then he listened to the Central Park and I'm like, who the hell told you that something was in the Central Park? But apparently he has something in there because even when they got there, he asked the Dom on them. He was like, so did you guys find what you looking for in the park? I was like, yeah. I thought he had look out there anyway, Probably 'cause somebody has said there's lookouts in the park when that was the not Roxana. What's her name? Roxana. Uh huh. Roxana. Yeah, 'cause she. Yeah, I think 'cause I thought she had said something about lookouts in the park. They're always watching.

1:02:19 OK, what? Alright, so Megan is about to become the the Donna's best. Friend look like she's like hey, come sit in the back with me. I told you, I think she got a little crush on *** but that's. The probably I got. Anything I need her back? Story. I mean, we got a little bit, we know we just really got her career. Yeah, I need her. I need the true back story. Yeah, but I I'm telling you, she got one more time to mention Nigga's family 'cause every time she said it, his face turns stormy.

1:03:00 Even at the beginning of the episode. You did it just because he said I'm only boss. Like he wasn't being sarcastic, he wasn't being a smart ass. You told him to do something. He's like, alright boss, and then you're like your family and his face just chances. Oh, she just, she really wants Lucille going across her head. That only one for her. I just. That's all I can say. You're not going. Just not going in well for you, man. It, it is not. It's not. But I don't know. Do we need to talk about anything else? I know Michelle has to go.

1:03:43 Now, this one was pretty much this was a it was a centralized episode with the, with the, the UFC celebrity Deathmatch. It was, I think it was it, it really a lot happened, but not a lot happened, you know what I mean? It was more acquisition, yeah, yeah. But I think we did hit all the points. So we did find out that they have been renewed for season 3. So and then this is also San Diego Comic Con week. I don't know if they'll have anything for Dead City because Dead City literally just ended maybe two months ago.

1:04:28 We are going to have some Darrell Dixon information. I think I saw that they're supposed to be a full length trailer released this week. So it would have already been released by the time this episode is published. So we'll share that information on our Facebook page as we get it. But no final thoughts for this episode. Don't try to scam in the apocalypse, OK? And on that note, that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media on all the social media at Phantom Hybrid.

1:05:10 You can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, you can chat with us on our Discord channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.