Agatha All Along, Part 2 (Episodes 6-7) - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #316

0:13 You just started the recording yet? This fall, you started it. You don't want to smoke fun. You know what? I'm, I'm, I'm telling you, I'm going to need to go ahead and schedule that Seahawk battle. I'm ready to fight you. You know what? What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah. I am here with Mike, Anthony and Michelle, and we are, if you haven't been able to tell, because I'm keeping that first bit in, we are discussing Progatha All Along, Episode 6 and seven. And it's funny, you see, I'm dressed up for Halloween. We're talking about witches, so yay. And I know that when we recorded the first part of Agatha, we said that we were going to do the last four episodes together. But I'm going to say that when I watched Episode 6, I was chomping at the bit then to talk about it because I was like all of the unenthusiastic responses that I had to the first five episodes, they fully made-up for for me in Episode 6. Episode 6 is what made me say, OK, I'm in. I want to know more.

1:31 Like, I don't know why it took them so long to get to that point. That episode with the back story of how Billy Maximoff became William Kaplan. I loved it. I loved it. I was like, where was all of this for the Paris fired? Episodes. It was there, you just didn't see it. You just. Joined me. It's it. It was not there. It was not there just trying to. It was not there, no. I'm not. I'm not even going to try. To argue with you a lot, but I'm not going. To Yeah, it was there for you. And that I think that's the thing because everybody has been like laughing at our and I'm back and forth.

2:11 It was not there for me. And and even now going back, look, knowing what I know about the 6th and 7th episodes, there are things that I can see like, OK, here are these threads and this is where they were kind of doing it. But no, episodes one through 5 did not have me interested. And if I go back and rewatch them now, I'm still going to be like me. And I think I figured out for myself what a big part of it was, But we'll get into that a little bit later on. So I'm going to ask Anthony, since you are the other dissenting voice, about episodes one through 5. Did episode 6 or seven or six and seven change your thoughts about the show in any way?

2:57 Remember, you have to have a place. I was talking to Anthony. Michelle, don't make me mute your mic. I'm not saying anything. So episode 6 made-up of a lot of the failures of episodes one through 5. A lot. I'm still on the fence about the show, but I do see that six and Seven or well, episode 6 has definitely improved my opinion of the show, so it's not quite all the way down there with.

3:38 Don't. You? Don't. No, no, absolutely the fuck not. Mike, don't make me mute your mic. Don't make me mute your mic. It's it's not down there anymore, you know, it's just above She Hulk. Sir, it's above or below. It's moved up past She Hulk. OK. OK. Yeah, OK. Thank you. But it it's. What about Hawkeye? Is it above? Hawkeye, oh, Hawkeye is like one of the better shows, so. No, that's the Babel. We need to wait till we get to the. Anyway, let me get to the last two before you get there. I I see, OK, so we're going to probably argue about this and when they say my piece, and I'm not going to say anything else about it. But it seems as if whatever issues they were having in the writing room that they were somehow able to maintain and keep some of the things from those first five episodes and make something out of it that was much more compelling and interesting than what they started out with. So I'm not saying they had all this plan from the beginning. I'm just saying that maybe they were like, OK, this is kind of where he wanted to go, but all the other stuff around the framework was kind of bad.

4:59 It it was, but seems as if the framework was there. It's just, it was just not well written around that, which would make sense. But they would be like, you know what, you're writing some trash. We're going to have to. We have to change something and it worked. It worked out. The dog is over here hitting me like even though. The dog knows you're wrong. You see that even the dog knows. We're not going to say he's wrong. That is his. That is his opinion and what he took away from it. And I think that was part of the problem with the last episode, because y'all were trying to tell me and Anthony we were wrong. We were wrong. We're like, no, this is our opinion.

5:39 This is what we took away from it. Like if y'all liked it, that was fine. But for me, Anthony, and especially because y'all know me and Anthony don't always agree when it comes to these shows, so the fact that both of us were on the same page was a little strange. But I mean, just like what he just said, I kind of felt the same way when it came to these two episodes. And I don't, I think part of the problem for me, and I've noticed this when I rewatched episode 6 and seven, and I think I mentioned this in the the part one that we dealt with, I feel like Agatha is she's playing a version of herself and that version of herself that she's pretending to be the mean person, the snarky person is coming off very inauthentic to me.

6:37 And I think that's what bothers me so much about it. That's why I don't really care for her character. There are some instances where I can go back now over the 1st 5 episodes and then a couple of times in the 6th and 7th episode where you kind of see what I feel like is the genuine her. She doesn't bother me in those instances, but the parts where she's being really snarky and when she's trying to put off this air of being this mean witch, and that's what aggravates me about her, about her character. And because we saw so much of that in the 1st 5 episodes, I think that's part of the reason why I didn't like them so much.

7:18 But episode 6 and episode 7, because they focused on, to me, two of the more likable characters on the show. I think that's why I was able to look at them a little bit differently. And then just William slash Billy's whole story as far as how this came to be, that was just so fascinating to me, given what we knew about what happened in one division. So yeah, it I think that's for me, that's probably what it is. It's more about building these characters up and giving us a little bit more background into how they are, where they are now.

8:00 That's the characters. That you were mostly more interested in because what what I hear you saying is that in the beginning you wasn't feeling Agatha, who this is about her, her character 2 or 6 and a couple of, you know, friends we did mention. But when it got to Billy, who you mostly was interested about, that's what pulled you in. But also because the story was more focused and even with Lilia going through what she went through as far as jumping back and forth. In time it was confusing at first, but then when you see what her story is and and and basically how she's had to live her life, it makes sense because the story was more focused. I feel like in the 1st 5 episodes it was just kind of all.

8:49 Over the place, it wasn't focusing again on the characters that you are mostly interested in, focused on them. No, it even if it was even. With it, no, I mean I totally get what Conoco is saying. I could understand why she is now more pulled into it than before because like when we're talking about the witch with her curse and stuff, I mean it wasn't her. However, it it wasn't as a detailed story as Billy's episode or detailed story with our next episode. You know what it what it almost seems like as if I, I, we could probably look on Wikipedia and see, but it's almost as if each episode had individual writers.

9:43 Like they were responsible for a character and they wrote the episode they were and the the strength of the episode was based on the strength of the writer. Does that make sense? It does it. Does it? Wasn't 1 cohesive person OK? So but for me, I disagree. Then I push back a little bit and disagree it there are those strings and it things do tie together. And I think it's like a roller coaster ride where it was just building up speed and getting to the height. And then this height was Billy episode and now we're going for the ride. So I think it was just pulling us in like why it have been enjoying it and I saw the pieces.

10:27 So when it came together these last two episodes, I mean I did, y'all are just not getting it now, but I got it. I I think the the. Thing that bothered the thing that bothered me the most. Wait wait, we had to get Mike's a pink bop the two episodes first to the father but. Hanukkah said it would bother her, so I want to say. That's fine, That's fine. Keep going. I already wrote down what I'm going to say. For the good and shine and posse. I just want to make sure I get what I wanted out before we go into Yeah, I just wanted to say that would bother me the most as it was very similar to the Acolyte. So those of you who watch The Acolyte would see. Not. That when we do, when we go back and redo time jumps, we go back and show you different perspectives of things that happen.

11:16 That shit isn't always really isn't really always good, and it's not necessarily great. Friends is nothing like that though. I don't understand why Disney or Marvel or I don't know why whoever is running things over there, things that this is a great way to tell a story and it really isn't that we're going to have flashback episodes. The shit that happened before the show even started. So that actually kind of bothers me because I just want you to give me a story from beginning to end and I don't need to go back and the oh man, I need to go back and watch those first five episodes to see all the stuff that I missed because y'all gave me the episode that should have probably been the 1st. That's all I want.

12:00 I'm going to talk about. I'm going to talk. About what you're saying, that's what you're saying. My children, let's stop. I'm good. OK, definitely not what happens. So I, I understand what both you and and Michelle are saying. Michelle, I think the thing with the earlier episodes and let, let's talk about the Alice episode, because like you said, it's, it does seem like now they're starting to go to individually focused episodes. The episode that talked about Alice's curse, I think part of the issue was even though it was focusing on her character, it wasn't focusing on her character.

12:44 You had the little bit about the curse and about her mom and the protection spell, but then you also was trying to figure out what the hell Rio and Agatha were over here talking about. And then you had this and then you had the stuff with Agatha's mom. It was just too much going on. And, and again, I think I said this in the previous episode, I am big about character development. Like give me a story that makes sense. And even with the flashbacks for Billy and Lilia's, and technically speaking Lilia's is flashback slash, time travel slash whatever, it still kind of made sense because the focus of the episode was mainly on them. It wasn't all over the place.

13:29 Oh, let's pull up. You know, kind of like watching Discovery Witches. Let's pull a thread here. Let's pull a thread here. Pull a thread here. Time and a knot. And that's the episode. I just I wasn't feeling that formula now. Push back because Lydia episode I don't think we got a deeper character development. Billy yes. And see, that's where that's where we'll disagree because I, I think we got a lot more with Lily actually. I just know she time travels. I just know she's now reading the things that was happening to her to get to the final conclusion before she dies. I didn't get anything extra like I don't know what happened to. This OK, you didn't.

14:13 I did that. That's the, but that's the whole point of. Like did she have once a family like any anything other than the time travel and her learning things and holy now understanding why she goes back and forth and how she feels about that. We got that. But what else did you get you? Didn't get that she was going without a coven then she. Yeah, I got that part. We got that. Part I mean everything about. So everything about. First of all, I wanted this to be a pleasant discussion about all kinds of nice things, but then you go bring up the Acolyte. Like really?

14:54 OK, first of all, the Acolyte completely screwed up how it did time jumps. Like I was confused the whole time. That's one of the worst parts about the whole damn series is like, you have to be really specific about time jumps when you're doing them. And I kind of see how you can get confused in episode 7 when you going, when you're going through what, when you going through her back story and and like, and they're trying to catch you up with all of her, all of her intuitions that are coming true, like the the Alice don't save Sophie, save Agatha, which was in two different episodes. And I'm just, but it's kind of like the seventh episode of The Boys, which we just recorded about.

15:37 It's like when at the end when we figure out that Butcher is totally imagining his friend and you go back and you go through the Fight Club montage of him talking to someone who's not there and that, and this is kind of the way, kind of their way of explaining. Her. Getting to the point in that trial where she's reading tarot and she's the one that understands that, that has the gift of sight, where she can see things in the future. And I wait. Hold on, let me get to my page I wrote. A dissipation. I took notes and I as far as the like really being unlikable and and like being snarky all the time.

16:24 So great coach Dennis Green, God rest his soul, he he was a coach in Arizona. They were. They had the lead, that lead on a team, but they ended up losing in the second-half and they asked him about it and he said they are who we thought they were. Yes. Yeah, Anthony knows. Yes, Agatha is who we thought she was. If you didn't think that she was going to be snarky and throw all kinds of comments on it, I don't know what to tell you. No. No, no, what I'm saying is the snarky part of Agatha, I feel like is not who she truly is. And and the fact that she's trying to be that she, it seems like she's being so forceful to put forth that persona.

17:09 That's what's bothering me because I feel like at her core, that may not be who she is. OK, I can, I can agree. I can, we can agree to disagree on that. I think, I think that's that's part of her thing because that's all she's shown us is like, you can only, we can only believe what you show us. And if she shows us that she has all kinds of snappy comebacks and backhanded comments and about things that about people that she's talking to, then that's who she is. It's like I, I, I, I just think, I think that's what she's shown us. That's my, that's my, that's my opinion. OK, so I don't think you really understand what I'm saying when I'm describing her. If you think about the Agatha that was revealed to us in one division.

17:55 OK, and and I'm, I'm going to preface this by saying something that Nick, one of our listeners and one of our friends. Hey, Nick said in response to our discussion. It was like a light bulb moment for me. And I was like, oh, yes, that's exactly it, at least how I look at it. When we look at the way Agatha was in one division when she made the reveal, when it when it became Agatha all along and we realized that she was the one that was manipulating. She was the one that was doing all the evil stuff. Then it really felt like she was an evil person. You get what I'm saying? Like I had no, I had no doubts about who she was.

18:40 Now it almost feels like a parody of that person she was in Wanda Vision and something that Nick brought up that made me really think about it. When you look at when you look at Wanda's back story, when when it goes back to when her her mother tried to have her killed, she seemed different than she wasn't evil. She was genuinely just trying to be a witch. Her mom thought she was evil and she ended up doing the evil stuff because they were trying to kill her. But also this whole time, including when, when Wanda Vision was going on, she had the dark cold, which could have been influencing the way that she that her personality was. Now she's been living three years without the dark cold. She's been three years under a spell where she's been pretending to be someone else.

19:40 And now that she's broken free from that spell, it almost feels like she's putting on a front because she still wants people to think that she's mean, that she's evil, that she will kill them at a moment's notice. But I don't think that's really who she is. And that's why. If you were under a spell for three years and you all of a sudden came out of it and was like what the fuck is going on? Would you not be that way? OK, you don't you don't understand what I'm saying. I understand if she wants to be that person, but it feels like she's faking being that person. She's coming off to me like she's still acting like she's under a spell IF. You OK?

20:21 I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. It doesn't come across as genuine to me right now. OK. Because I think she we're not going to agree on that, so that's fine, but I agree. I agree with Hanukkah with that one because, but not in the way you think. I agree with you Hanukkah because I think that is it. I think she has a front up. I think with all the stuff she has gone through that she does pretend to be who she is. And no, we are not going to. In little moments through these seven episodes, we saw a little glimpse of who she really is, but she has that wall up and she is hiding behind that. So we're not going to get the authentic her until you really get to know her and we pull away those layers. And I, and I don't have a problem with that. I just don't like that.

21:12 Like, OK, I'm going to put it to you like this. In Billy's episode, you know, when we're going back through Billy's recollections of what happened to him and his meeting with Agatha, if you remember the scene where in Agatha's mind, it took place in the police station, but in his vision, it took place in her living room. And just the way that she was when she was like, do you want to poke the bear? Do you want to? Like, that was an obvious exaggeration because again, at that point, she was under the spell. She didn't know she was being controlled, so in her mind, when she's in the police station, she's asking him in a regular vose. Do you want to poke the bear? Are you dot, dot, dot?

21:53 That seemed like a genuine response. OK, The way that she's acting now, it would be like, it would be like me going around pretending like I'm the most vicious, vile person. But if you guys know me and know that I'm not that person, if you see me going out acting like acting that way and obviously acting like I'm on a stage play or something, that would be bothersome. That's kind of how I perceive it. She it is. It's just like she's acting apart and. She knows that I know for you, but that's what she's doing on purpose. And even her point of view and his point of view, she's still under the spell. That is not even truly her anyway. But it felt real to you because that's what the spell wanted her to be like a True Detective.

22:45 But again, that's the front she putting up and they believe it. I just don't. I just. The people around her believe those things keep carrying on. I don't know if I don't know if I feel like they do. I'm sorry my I don't know if I feel like they do, but they do, they say. How evil she is. I'm willing to compromise and say that part of it's real and part of it's fake. I think I think that she still has some of that in her personality when she has that snark because her snark is too a lot of the thing. Some of the snark that she says is too practiced and polished for her to not for her to be faking it. I think that she's been leaving for hundreds of years.

23:27 She has plenty of time to pick up all kinds of snark and to be cynical about a whole lot of shit because she's seen a whole lot of shit. So I just said, man, we, we saw this when when Billy looked her up and they went through everything that they've seen her in, I mean, from her being Jolene to her being at the Hindenburg to all this other stuff that she's been through. She's been through a lot. So she is entitled to have a level of snark. And I see what you're saying. And it could and it could be as far as, as far as her, as far as her maybe overdoing it a little bit, I can concede that she probably is. I can concede that. I'm just saying that for example, in the Ouija board episode, when they were when they were trying to punish her, she's she's sister.

24:15 She's like, This is why I don't have female friends, which is a which which I was like that just fits right in with her personality. But that actually seemed like a genuine part, like that was something that was genuine. But the rest of it is almost like she's. It's almost like she's still in Wanda's sitcoms and she's a bad actress and, and I don't know, something about that is, is is tainting the way that I looked at those earlier episodes. OK, that's what I'm saying. OK. And I can even attribute it to Anthony's complaint about the writing. It's like maybe she's being written uneven as far as her snarky comments. Like maybe some of her comments are written in a way where she performs them. They're just, they just don't land where other ones, where she performs them, they land perfectly. So, So there's a lot, there's a balance there that is really precarious.

25:05 Sometimes she hits it, sometimes she doesn't. I mean, it doesn't bother it. It really doesn't bother me because I'm kind of, I'm kind of looking at it as a whole of her being snarky. So and then it takes me back to the episode Vision. She takes Wanda back and goes through her life and the things that she says then like when they're in the basement, I feel like, I feel like she's still kind of in that lane. And I, I mean, there is there is the thing of her just coming out, coming out of Wanda's spell that we still have to deal with that, that still is probably affecting her too. So I'm I'm willing to concede that there are some parts that are that are proper snarking some parts that might be a little overdone.

25:51 Also real quick before we go on, out of everyone else, I agree that Billy's story has gotten, I mean he got a whole episode basically. It's like Lillian didn't even really get a whole episode. She got 2/3 of an episode in episode 7 because most of that really wasn't her episode. It was like 4/5, but it but it didn't it didn't go into detail like it did Billy because Billy's come because they're going to put Billy and do more with Billy later. So of course they're going to give us more of his story. And they didn't give us a lot of story about Alice. I mean, even Jen might be coming back later because there's there, there's certain things about her character in the comic books that says that there are there are there could be a place for her further down the MCU. But we have to wait for that because we're not probably not going to learn a lot about her later. I'm not about her in this series. See, that's the thing, because I was, I was feeling like, OK, so we got, like you said, most of Alice's background or a bit of Alice's background Episode 5.

26:53 And then you have Billy for six, you have Lilia for 7:00. So I kind of felt like with it being just Billy, Jen and Agatha remaining, we've already heard Billy's story. So I'm thinking Jen might be the next episode might be episode 8 and then the the finale episode will be like Agatha story. At least that's the kind of the way that I would think, especially with the way that they've gone with these last three episodes. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to just count Jen off yet because I feel like whatever we need to know about her and her story and why she's on the road, I feel like we're probably get that in Episode 8, which I have not seen yet. Yeah, I just think that I mean, they have they have a lot, they still have the ending, the grand finale of the road to get to and the whole lot of other stuff.

27:50 So they might not have time to get into her story that much. I mean, because we've already she went, she was the first, the first trial was hers. Like that was that was her sure moment to shine. So if they would have given us the back story, I think they would have given it, given us a little bit more there. Which again, is one of the problems that I have with the earlier episodes because if that was her trial, like you know how how all of them were going through and they were seeing certain things that were bothering them. But we never really got her story except for her to say he took my magic and you don't really know who he is. You you get what I'm saying. So maybe we'll see that in one of the last two episodes.

28:31 But as far as Lilia, yeah, I I agree with you that the episode was not fully hers, but I think it was enough of hers for us to get because that. Was yeah, you're right. Yeah, for us to for us to get her story and to understand what her, one, what her trauma was. And then two, also just kind of what her truth was and what her path was as far as her being on the road. So all of it kind of tied together because we did see in Billy's episode that she was a large part of that. Like she was the one who placed the sigil on him. She was the one who knew what was going to happen to William Kaplan, knew that Billy was going to take over his body, and also knew that he would need time in order to adjust for that.

29:28 Which also goes into one of the questions we had when we discussed the first fight of five episodes. Because we were like, if Billy was there all along, why couldn't Wanda find him? Well, if he was being hidden and no other witches could find him, Wanda wouldn't have been able to find him either. I mean, Billy didn't even know for sure that he was who he was until three years after all of this happened. So and and of course, you know, just the little clues going about. So I think Lilia's story was a good one because we did get to learn all of that stuff and then she got her closure. She got to do what she needed to do.

30:10 And now we get to go further on the road. But I will say this, as far as those two episodes, like Billy's reveal, again, we got that at the end of episode 5 with the mic drop. And then you get it and the way that they explained it and how everything happened, that was great. But I would say Lilia's episode, that was the one that had me emotional, That was the one that had me crying because I was just like, no, I don't want her to go anywhere because she is genuinely, again, one of the characters I like the most on this show. And it was just, once you learn what her trauma is and everything, she's like, look, I've been chased out of every village that I've ever been to. I, I knew when people were dying. All I saw was death.

30:57 That's a, that's a hard thing for anybody to have to live with. And so for her to push her powers aside just so she wouldn't have to deal with that, but then to turn around at the end when she saves them all, she was like, I love being a witch. Oh my God. I was like, I was like, why are y'all making me cry now? Y'all couldn't do this a few episodes ago, But I, I, I mean like like Anthony said, it could be written differently, but I just something about these two episodes, just it like really grabbed me. Yeah, her episode was just incredible. Like, I mean, I, I I know it's it's kind of wonky, but I like the way they handled like putting everything together like I, I can, I can I dig that.

31:45 Especially the end when she when she said, when she set the deck and and started and started like calling out everybody's cards like that was just incredible. And the reveal that I can't that we all kind of knew anyway that real was actually death. Like that was just and the and shout out, shout out to the visual effects in this show when they did that flash and showed her face with the skeleton on the bottom and her regular face on the top. And I was just like, Oh shit. And see, that's the crazy thing because I I may have to adjust the settings on my TV. It was so dark I couldn't even tell. The only way I knew what her face looked like was someone had posted a photo of it, a screen grab of it on like an article. And I saw and I was like, oh, that's what she looked like. Because even when I rewatched it tonight, I couldn't really tell. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of, it's weird. It's kind of hard to see on certain monitors because like even when I was watching, watching other reactions, because actually I watched it again because I watched episode 7 at work on my phone and it was kind of dark when they did it. But when I watched it again on my TV, like I could actually see, I could see the light hitting her face and I was like, oh shit.

33:03 So it's like you definitely need to need to like adjust your contrast to lighter for this show, because I mean, the whole thing with even with her, with her and Jan's conversations in underground like that, that shit was hilarious to me. It's just like I loved I loved you 5 minutes ago, like 5 minutes ago. You like that was that was funny as shit. I was laughing watching this episode because I was like, oh, all this. Technically, going back in time, I said Anthony is going to get irritated. Oh, yeah. Because we know Anthony does not like time travel.

33:43 But I think the way. To think this, this kind of time travel doesn't bother me as much. Because it's within the one person. Well, yeah, it is magic, and magic time travel doesn't require it is they don't pretend to have a scientific basis. OK, he says that now. It's so funny. About about your about the Outlander show. And I said I don't have a problem with the time travel now because I feel like it's magic. And the other one with Sandra Bullock, that was Magic, which sort of did have a little yeah, about time travel. Is that the one with the letter? Yeah, I I told you it was fantasy too.

34:27 OK, OK, OK. Because at first she was like, I don't know about that, OK. But no, when Lilia said time is a construct, I would. I heard that in Anthony's voice. I have. Said that before. I know, that's why I heard. Of it you want to make sure I keep. It we know. So when I see another show about time travel, we have conversations about time travel. I can refer back to this if it's Matthew. The thing about, I think the thing about Lily is time travel that we experienced was that I think the thing that makes it easier to follow and more easy to digest is the fact that it's not like she's time travelling and she's interacting with herself or it's not like she's interacting with other versions of the people that she's been surrounded by. We're literally looking at her time travelling, but for us it's like flashbacks because we've seen her do these things like when when Teen and Agatha were in her kitchen and she was she was wigging out.

35:32 When they show her her time travel, her skipping through time and then putting it together so that we can see the whole picture. It was just kind of like, oh, that's what she was experiencing. So it didn't feel, it didn't feel like usual time travel to me. It just felt like, oh, that's what she was, that's what she was going through. Yeah, and it's similar to the mini Jesuit in Dune, where they connect with each other across time. Time. They're communicating with each other because they're all sharing the same experience and that's how I feel like hers is. It's not really time travel, she's just experiencing being in the same different places in their same body so. That's why I'll.

36:18 Have a problem with it? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I her back story was was just sad as shit. It's like she actually told foretold the disease coming to coming to her coven and they see still they still can't do anything about it. I was just like, damn, that's what which, which goes back in depth of explaining her, her vision in the first trial. We see her, her her maestro looking up and then the specter of death behind her. And I was just like, oh fuck, OK, but that that's, I mean, I appreciated her story so much and I love, I love the Uno reverse of her turning the tower right side up to defeat the to defeat the seven.

37:07 Like that was awesome. And then the whole, the whole, the whole visual of the the room turning upside down and everybody flying up and her catching the table was just like, incredible. Yeah. Like I love that. I loved it, but I I'm so sad that she's gone now. Will. Her and Alice like damn it. Look, she's gone for us, but technically speaking, she's not gone because she went right back to the beginning of her journey. So going. Back to train again. Time is a construct, but OK, let's go back to Billy's episode because I have a couple of questions about William Kaplan. So when we get his episode starting, he's getting ready for his bar mitzvah.

37:56 And there is, you know, we get to see the programs there. Is it just me or did he not say magic mitzvah? Is that something usual? Because I don't know anything about bar mitzvahs. I've never been to 1. I don't know exactly what those ceremonies entail. They're usually seen magic MAMAGMAGICK mitzvah. Mitzvahs are themed usually think back to think back to the Boys episode 2 or 3 where they went to the Miss Maisel mitzvah. So it's like they're theme to whatever, whatever the team wants their party to because it's basically a part. It's a coming of age party. It's like there's religion at first. Think of it like a wedding.

38:39 Like there's a whole lot of religious stuff at the beginning. Then there's a big party where where everyone has fun at the end. This is basically the same thing. He's doing the religious part of becoming a man. Then he goes to a party where it's all about him and he's into Wizard of Oz, he's into mystical stuff and all the other stuff. And that's why he has fortune teller. Yeah, OK. Yes, so that that's why it's the magic mixer. OK, because I was wondering, I was like, OK, so is this like a similar thing within a magical community and his, you know, the William Kaplan was magical as well and that was maybe why Billy found his body so quickly and stuff. I was just trying to wonder because even when we get the three years later when William Slash Billy is 16, you see his appearance has already changed and he kind of looks like this quote UN quote goth person.

39:31 And just even some of the stuff that he's discussing with the boyfriend, it sounds like he's heavily into magic and witchcraft already at that point. So I was just like, OK, was this something that William Kaplan was also into or did it just happen because Billy was in there? Didn't know who he was, but he knew that he was magically inclined. So I was just confused about that whole thing because when I saw it on the program, I was like, oh, does the magical community does? Like it will make sense if you have a magical being that just happens to be Jewish. That OK If if that's how they combine.

40:11 And Billy, Billy was actually lucky. Like this is this is part of I think, I think this I think that Billy, like Wanda's chaos magic, had a lot to do because Billy found the perfect by perfect host. And let's be honest, people would hundreds of people die a second, thousands of people die a minute. And he he, but he had to find a body after. I mean he for some reason somehow he found after after being in the bubble and escaping the bubble, he found the perfect body. Yeah, I mean, it's and I don't even know if I would say he found it.

40:58 It just happened that everything happened and. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what he's fortunate. Like that's just but that and that and that's like, I don't know if that that's part of Wanda's way of like the the hex, the hex disappearing like altered probabilities somehow for him to be able to find that because Wanda's magic during Wanda's chaos magic, it it does, it is partially probability based. She can alter probabilities, right? So she's probably, so it's likely that I mean. I mean. I mean that she that that her power she may have even subconsciously trying to save her kids. Her chaos magic created that situation for her, for him to find a body that he would actually thrive in. Yeah, I mean, if you think about the end of like right around the time that the part that that we heard in this one, when they were when the kids were saying goodnight to each other, right before she walks out the room when she's told them goodbye. Like, of course Tommy doesn't know what's going on, but Billy can read minds.

42:08 And I think we said this even when we discussed Wanda Vision way back then, like Billy probably knew what was about to happen. And I don't know if there was some kind of communication taking place with him and Wanda or if he just saw that in her mind, like, oh, OK, I'm about to have to kill my children. And like you said, maybe with his magic, he panicked. Maybe it was that he felt Williams spirit dying and exit in the body and his mind just kind of latched on that. I I was thinking about it like when when Charles Xavier got killed by Jean Grey in the X-Men movies, remember he went and put his mind in that other body.

42:52 I was like maybe that was with Billy too. Maybe he didn't do that on purpose. It just something, it was just something that just happened to happen because of who he is and the type of powers he had. Yeah, I mean, he didn't jump into. More about more about Wanda's power, not his power I think. I mean he, I mean, he didn't jump into a 80 year old black man. So that would have been weird. Just like you know with. Yeah, because ultimately, ultimately, Tommy and Billy are constructs of chaos magic of hers. So by extension, it would still be her magic controlling what was happening.

43:33 OK, does that make sense? So instead of I'm not just, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying the way I think about it is it wasn't him using his magic to find the way out. It was her using her magic to adjust the probability that he would be able to find, you know, a body or be put in the body, you know, because we don't know if he did that or she did that. Right. I think it's more likely that she did. Maybe she didn't know that she did because remember, and then eventually wanted to save her kids, you know, so OK. I think, I think, I think Billy had, I think Billy probably if he, I think he, I mean, because he was just not just figuring out the extent of his powers, like at the shootout, for example, where he could stop the bullet, like he was just figuring out the extent of his powers. He was like, he's like, oh man, if I could do that, I wonder what else I could do.

44:33 So I mean, if he's there and he and he hears Wanda say, well, he he can pretty can hear Wanda's mind saying that she doesn't want them to die. He's like, well, how can I prevent this? Like, well, you know, I could probably lift our consciousness vessels and find another vessel. OK, that, that that's a lot. It's. My theory. It's my theory. Let me have my theory, OK? The timing was just you. Can have your look. When you have theories again, you can have your theory. This is my. That can't even go with you on that one. That's fine. It's my that's fine. I don't like. I oh OK, I said I had a theory but I guess you don't want. To hear no, he was saying fine with me, he was saying fine with me.

45:18 So what's your theory? See. See you, you. You're a. You're a. Y'all don't want to? Y'all don't want to hear my theory? What's your? Theory. Really. You're going. To go there, I think I mentioned this before, this whole witch's road is is a farce, is fake, and this is something that Billy has created based on what he has heard about it. The Road was a myth created by Agatha so she could lure witches who were either ambitious and wanted more power, or witches who were weak and wanted to get more power so she could steal all of their power. That's why she's the only one to ever survive the Witch's Road, because she's.

46:04 Is that how I win the? Comics. I'm sorry, does that how I win the comics? I don't know. I don't, I don't read those comics. Oh, OK. I'm not a, I'm not a Wanda Vision, you know, I, I don't really read the, the, the mystical stuff like that. No, that sounds. I mean that that sounds entirely plausible. And that's why she doesn't know what the heck is going on. She has no clue what is happening. And I'll be trying to figure, and that's why she seems the way she does, trying to figure it out as she goes along. And it ties into the posters that surround his room and. He said and she said you have a tail just like your mom, so she knows that he's and how he has has power and all of a sudden he can't do it because he's just spending so much power creating the construct that they're in.

47:01 Like his mother. Yeah, just like his mom, he's doing the same thing. Which I would think as a writer, I don't think I would kind of copy the same thing that was already done with one division. But hey, if it weren't before, why not do it again? And I mean, he's her son, so it wouldn't be unthinkable to say that she. Possibility. Yeah, that to say that he might be able to do the same thing, just maybe on a I mean, we can say on a smaller scale, but again, we don't really know how powerful he is. We have to think about it. He's still in a sense amnesiac. Like he knows that he's Billy Maximoff now. He knows that he has a brother out there now. But even the way that he talks about them is a little detached, like he's not sure of them.

47:51 Because when when Agatha says something about his mom or, you know, when she's referring to Wanda as his mom, he's like, she's not my mom. I already have a mom. It's very detached in a sense. Like he knows that. OK. If I'm Billy Max Ma, she is my mom. And maybe also some of the stuff that Agatha said to him as far as oh, yeah, she she gave up her flesh and wires to save a town of people. She, you know, a town of strangers. That could be. Affecting him as. Well, but I think we're still dealing with him trying to remember who he is and what exactly happened.

48:33 Again, this is it's been three years. So with the trauma that he's gone through, he really could have blocked all of that out. So that could be a part of, you know, why he can't access that magic too. And then if he can only access it in times of trauma or as he says, emotional heightenedness, just like he can really hear the people, hear what their thoughts are. If they are very close to him and people that he cares about, like he told the boyfriend, then that could be the way he accesses his magic. It has to be through that kind of chaos, for lack of a better word.

49:17 You know, the trauma or the, the great emotion and at that, just at that moment, I don't think Agatha was pushing him far enough for him to actually be able to use. So I don't know I, but you know. That's got me see that has me thinking it's like especially when they when they went into the mud and they just ended up like kind of underground, like in almost looked like a spare room like like that. Does he not have the like he just has the bandwidth to get them out of the way and not really destroying them? We'll see. I don't think he wanted to destroy them to begin with because.

49:57 No, no, no, no. What I'm no, what I'm saying is his theory that that the whole witch's road is a construct of Billy's imagination. Like maybe that's just like something on the surface where he just gets you out of the way and drops you underground and put you and just keeps you somewhere that you're that you're not around him. And especially when when they needed Lila for the the terror reading, he said. I wish she was here and boom, there she is. Yeah, yeah. See and back to the thing about about. You're totally screwing me now, my mind. Oh, and the thing about the mom thing with Wanda, he has spent more time with William's mother three years than he ever did with Wanda. Yeah.

50:44 Because he, yeah, because he aged so fast. Yeah, he was with, he was with Wanda, what, a few days? And this is Mom. Well, I mean, he was there six years. I mean, he did, but he was six weeks. I'm just kidding. Go ahead. No, no, no. But I I think. I I know what you wonder what he's. Saying as far as the whole W you think that months, I think so. Yeah, I think it was a few months, but either way, three years with a woman who treated like a child. Yeah, Dave. Dave. They they, they that's, that's going to feel like you're real mom. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he even even tried to convince himself after he got back to the hospital that he was that that's who he was. Like he was their son.

51:28 And he wasn't Billy Maximoff. He was Billy Cap. William Kaplan. Well, he didn't know. He didn't know about Billy Maximoff at that point. He just didn't know who he was. He. Just I know, I know, but what I'm saying is he was trying to reinforce that and not try not think though, because he, like you said, he didn't know who he was. So he was trying to reinforce the fact that that was his mother instead of saying, well, that's not my mom. He was actually reinforcing the fact that he part of his family, so he had to act like it. Yeah, yeah. But. And he may not even, I'm sure he doesn't realize that he's the one. That's part of my theory that he he doesn't even know that he's creating this situation. Who does that sound like?

52:13 His mother. His mother. Because she didn't know what she was doing. She didn't know that she had done to Westview what she did until it got pointed out to her. And that could have been what that could have been what Agatha meant when she said something about you have a tell, because when he asked her what is that she, she didn't answer. She just said inconvenient for you. Yeah. That could very well be it. And and also I'm, I'm just thinking about these things being a telepath, he can pull things out and minds. So are we even sure that Rio is real? Like are we even sure that Rio is actually the Rio we think she's supposed to be or that he has pulled her out of Agatha's memories?

53:08 I mean, so when when he was like, where's Rio and Agatha's like don't worry about that, like. Yeah, but I mean also Agatha, Agatha, she also. Had a job so she had to do some work and then come back. Agatha is really good at shielding her mind from Billy too, because remember, Billy could never read her mind. In one division. He said that her mind was clear, like he couldn't get anything from her. Like everyone else. He could get something from her, but from her she couldn't get into the shield. She's really good at shielding from this Susanna Powers.

53:49 Yeah. Well, what I'm saying is if she had an inkling of that, that this could, that he could actually be Billy Maximoff earlier, she's going to be like, I need to. Oh, I can't. I can't let him in my head. Like I know. But she doesn't have to have powers for that though, because she probably have trained over the years, train herself to do that. That's what I would think is aware. Of but all the time that he was with her when she was under the spell, she wasn't blocking her mind. But in her mind, she was in the spell, so she wasn't thinking anything like she was in the moment. Like the memories are still. Thick. She's under spell. She's a different person. Not, yeah, not if she doesn't remember who she is. She. Blocks she can the memories are still can't get.

54:30 There. Yet that door was like. Yeah, she didn't have that. OK, Yeah, I guess. I guess I'm giving Billy more credit than I should, you know, for my theory. But yeah. And. And she's to be real. Real's real. But she's been around a long time that it was it will. Even when she's under a spell subconsciously she still has a door block for people not to get in now. You're making stuff up. I'm not, I'm making it up. The fuck thank. You. How the hell are making it up if she's she's old enough one to have trained that someone cannot answer her brain and get the information they need to get to.

55:12 And if she was under a spell self consciously, she's still going to block people out because she's always done that so no one can read her mind. How did they work out for her with Wanda? That's about Wanda is much more powerful than Billy. So based on my theory, if Billy is doing all this, he has almost if not the same level of power as Wanda does, no? Even if he had the same level of power he doesn't have, he doesn't have anywhere near the control that Wanda does. That is true. Which goes to my theory that he doesn't know he's doing it, so subconsciously he's going to need information to do all the things that. He's doing but you have to work hard on her brain because self consciously she's still blocking him. Subconsciously, she wasn't subconsciously blocking him when she didn't know who she was.

56:06 And self consciously he needs to put he doesn't have enough power to unblock her brain. He needs to be doing it purposefully. I'm just saying this because you keep saying unconsciously and. Self consciously. Self consciously. I said I didn't say self. OK, self sub in out under this. The what she what she what she's basically doing is put is putting up put is is is is is covering her mind so no one can see what's in it. And she only takes it off when she when she feels comfortable with somebody or when she wants to. Yeah, and the answer is the. Block is up, the block is there. Yeah, it didn't really help her with Wanda, though.

56:49 Again, Wanda is a whole different entity. She doesn't know who she is, Anthony. She doesn't know she I mean, even if he read it, he's always going to read. Is her being mayor of East Town and trying to kick, kicking him in the chair and like wondering, wondering why, why, why the why the hell he has he has blueprints on his side because she kicks him and then she's like clicking a pin and he's trying to help her. It's like it's on, it's off, it's on, it's off, you know, and writing stuff like she's a crazy woman. It's like she's all she's thinking about. She's not thinking about being Agatha. She's not thinking about she doesn't know who Agatha is. And. He's looking over her shoulder for a beer. Like what beer are you talking about? Poke the beer?

57:30 Put what beer? But. To answer, I don't remember which one of y'all asked the question as far as whether I think Rio was something that is I guess manufactured. I don't I I don't think so. I think Rio is probably the real death. She is. That's what she. And she real real because she had a job. To do, and she'll come back when she's done. No, and I and I say that because we were introduced to Rio's character before Billy came into the picture, before Teen even entered the story, so she was alright. When? When, when and what? She's speaking her head in. Her head like out in the open.

58:15 Unchecked. Yeah, she, she was, she was out there. Remember, she came to visit. She came to visit in the Police Department. When actor was walking around her house talking to Rio, thinking she was in the detective station was real really, there was Rio with her head. We can. Be honest, we really don't know. Maybe in in her house, she might have been in her head. I I think she was there at the police station because the other she was. Never at the police. Station Never at the police station. Police station. Was always there. She probably didn't even exist. Yeah. Oh, that's OK. That's right. Because I, I keep forgetting we were looking at it from her point of view and OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. From the realistic point of view, she walking around her living room talking to Rio, who wasn't even there, that was in her. Which actually explained.

59:04 Maybe not. Which explains the part where she, where she well, and, and the second episode when, when she was sitting down in the chair with the mirrors and stuff and the, and the like TV tray, like thinking it's a car and I'm like, what the hell is she doing? I was like, then I saw this. I was like, oh, I was like, OK, why she think it's a car? I'm like, oh, she's pretty self-contained. Like her whole, her whole illusion is self-contained within it, within like two or three houses because she went out to her, She went out to Herb's Rose Garden and found a body and but so it's like everything's pretty well contained. So I'm wondering if she went into these people's houses thinking like if she went into Di's house thinking it was the library and she went into what's the name's house thinking it was a pawn shop like. OK you know what now that you're now that y'all are saying that because I was only thinking about the her point of view and teen's point of view with just those two characters but now y'all saying that.

1:00:05 Makes a whole lot of sense that none of that stuff, her finding the body, her being in the woods, none of that actually happened. Even though the, you know, the neighbors were kind of like, or what's his name Herb was like, hey detective, fancy seeing you. So if that was all in her head. OK, I will say this, thinking about that now I need to go back and look at the 1st 5 episodes and see if that changes how I perceive things because I didn't even think about the fact that everything else was happening in her head. I was just thinking from the moment team hit the story. So, OK, she. Was around her house.

1:00:48 The body was the Rose garden in the next the daisies whatever she took pictures of in like close to the neighborhood. So she's walking around just by her house though pretend to be a detective. That's why they look there, like, OK, I'm just gonna let her go with this. And yeah, because, I mean, what are you gonna do? It's like you, you're gonna risk her, risk her having powers and like blasting you, blasting you like into a negative universe or something like. They don't know that, they just assume like she's. Still, they don't know she can or can't, Exactly. They don't even know that she. Hey, Wanda. Yeah, sure. I'm a librarian. Yeah, they're thinking, well, maybe she's still Underwanda spell and she just couldn't get clear of it. Well they didn't know she was still Underwanda spell because I think Herb even said that when she walked across the street she was like how long have I been in this spell? He was like 3 years and she was like the fuck? Well you.

1:01:41 Know so they just went, they just went with it. And they, it's like they, they didn't want to be around when she snapped out of it in case she was like, and all of a. Sudden. But they don't know who she is though, do they? Yes, they do. They do she's not. I mean, in the in the in the grand finale, she snapped him out of it for a second. So she saw once they knew Wanda put her under it, but they also probably know that she's probably the one because everybody outside knew that something was going on inside. And you saw you saw with the YouTube video that he watched that they they actually saw one of the rooms that Wanda put up to to SAP to like make, make Agatha not have power when they were fighting. So like, they, they knew they know what's up. I mean, even when they come out, they're probably going to be like, what the hell, They go on.

1:02:30 You should be like, wait, that chick is one of them too. So they're like, oh fuck. But but you know, they probably the the the residents of Westview one, they probably don't sign so many in NDA's that it's just whatever they can't talk. They don't say anything. Could also be one of the reasons why Billy has such a hard time finding someone to tell him about what's going on, except for Mr. Ralph Boner. Boner yes, Sir. I'm so, I'm so glad to see him. I was like, that's. Fucking awesome I. Figured that's who that was.

1:03:12 And did you have, did you have flashbacks at when you when you saw him, you were like, oh God, no more theories. No, no. I was actually sitting there thinking that because when he showed up, I said Oh my. And not just then. I think it was in one of the first, one of the first few episodes, I think we mentioned this when Jen was the one who mentioned Mephisto. I was like literally that triggered me because I was like, Oh no, no, no, we can't do this because we talked about Mephisto so much when we were yes, but we participated in the discussion. So I'm saying we it was a collective.

1:03:55 And it wasn't just Mike, it was Laurie too. But it was just one of those things. When Jen mentioned it, I was like, Oh my God, are we going to start this again? And I was like, no, we can't do this. Wait, wait, wait. Was was the Quicksilver thing? Was that the thing that broke me on the theater was. That well, no, the the the the the person that Captain Marvel was supposed was supposed to be meeting where we kept the. We thought it was RE Richard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think, I think, I think Ralph Boner broke you. I think, I think, I think that broke you. Yeah, Yeah. I think that, I think.

1:04:36 That broke the theory train. That derailed the theory train, yes. Yeah, yeah, I think that was it. That's why I was worried. I was like, poor aunt. He's probably have flashbacks on it. Boner boner bitch. No more theories. No more theories. I mean, it was fun to have him here because it's like when you when you when you listen to the conversation that teen is having with him at that time, you do real, you do remember, OK, yes, Wanda did this and she had the town captain. But then you also, like I said, at that point, you are reminded that Agatha was the quote UN quote villain villain at that time because she knew what she was doing. Wanda did not, you know, And so to see to see Ralph go through that and recollect that and, and the type of trauma that he's dealing with from that, I was like, OK, so seeing him and seeing the way that he's reacting, like that's reminding me of who Agatha is supposed to be. And like I said earlier, I'm just not really getting that from her now.

1:05:50 But again, that could be explained because of the fact that she had the dark cold back then and now she doesn't. And then also going back to the dark cold and going back to your question about death and all this. So if Rio is deaf and Rio has already stated that she did something to someone she loved that was bad, which we all know she's she's talking about Wanda. Oh also side no all of the queer coded jokes in these episodes are were hilarious as hell. But anyway, going back to that, do you think that Rio has something to do with Agatha's son disappearing?

1:06:38 What whatever the sacrifice was? Because we don't even know if Agatha's son is dead or not. He might still be alive. He might be, you know, we we don't know. But do you think Leo has something to do with that? And she's trying to keep that from from Agatha, Like maybe her son is still alive, but she doesn't want to tell Agatha or. I think I think she absolutely has something to do with it, whether he's alive or dead, whether whether she helps help make it to make a deal to broker for his for his soul, or she took him early before he before, before Agatha felt he was supposed to go. Like maybe he maybe he maybe he died young and she and Agatha blames her for that.

1:07:18 Like, and it was something that was basically out of her hands. Like she she was just doing her job, like escorting him to wherever he needed to go afterlife. Because I mean, it could be be a couple things, but I think she was definitely directly involved. And that's why she was, that's why Agatha is just like, I can never forgive you because she took her son. She took something really, she took the one thing that she loved more than life away. So I think, I think she definitely has something to do with that. OK. And that's why that's why she, I mean, she could def definitively say that teen wasn't her son, Like 'cause she could see that. She could see that she was trying to get attached in that way.

1:08:02 So she she, she pulled her aside and was like, hey, that's not him. Like, and she knew for a fact that wasn't him, but you could tell that she was sure. So she definitely has something to do with it. OK, OK, so other questions now. Now that we sat here and discussed the fact that Agatha was basically in her head for all of that stuff. So technically speaking, she did not see a body. So are we still thinking that Wanda is dead? No one is alive. I mean, I mean you and I have said that Wanda is alive. I think Anthony was one who was like, no, Wanda is dead for for all intents and purposes. Do you still think?

1:08:48 For all intents and purposes. Her Mickey ears. Wander's ears. She's still alive, OK. Wander's alive, then if you again in the in what do? What do we say? If you don't see the fucking body, they're coming back. And and. That's why that's why I think definitely. Did not see your body, but that's also you can. You can see your body and they come back. Well, this is. Right. So what makes you think that she's dead then There? This is a feeling she's dead. They're trying to move on from all these old folks. She's one of the most popular characters in the MCU. If they could keep her around, they're going to keep her around.

1:09:35 And they made her death, that they did her death away on purpose because that way, if they wanted to bring her back, they could bring her back. If not, then they'll be like, well, yeah, she died, duh. Whole mouth fell on her, duh. But then if she comes back, they're like, she's a Scarlet Witch, of course she got out of it, duh. So it's like they have they have plausible deniability on both sides. Yeah, you saw Tony started dying. Apparently he's coming back too, so. Damn right he changed bodies and became Doctor motherfucking dude. You damn right he did. So yeah, he could. Everybody comes back. Nah, I'm gonna stick to it. She did. She's not dead. She is not dead. OK. She's not dead, she's alive. I'm trying.

1:10:18 I'm trying to tell you in like 3 years there's going to be a Scarlet Witch movie before a Blade movie. I I don't even know if at this point we'll ever get a Blade movie. It's not supposed to be funny, but. But it is, I mean, because what else can we do but laugh? I'm just saying because they've already, they've already been talking about doing the Scarlet Witch movie, so she can't be dead. Who taught? Can you forward me that article please? I'll do it. Yeah, yeah. I was going to say I I think they have talked about a possibility of a Scarlet Witch movie. I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's a production. I'm saying there been there been talks about it. I mean, she might be in production. Yeah, you know they.

1:11:05 Go, just go on, go on with your conversation. I'll forward it to you. A Soul Scarlet Witch movie is in development at Marvel, but it's not expected to begin filming anytime soon. It's in development. So yeah, like you said, we might get it before Blade. Which means she ain't dead. I think it's in the same pile as Blade. I think you're sitting in the same stack. Of scripts. And I would say this, Mike, them having a movie in development does not necessarily mean that the character is not dead. I mean, look at what they did with Black Widow. But I will say I also don't believe that Wanda's dead. And I've said that since Multiverse of Madness. Like, no, she got out of that cave before it collapsed.

1:11:48 We saw that little blink of red light. She is gone. She's somewhere out in the multiverse, somewhere in the universe. I don't know, maybe maybe she's sitting, maybe she's sitting with the watch or somewhere like, OK, so where can I go next? I mean, I I don't. Think, I mean, look, look at look at this way. Marble doesn't do anything accidentally. That shit was done on purpose. There's no way. Bubble getting crushed. Whatever. And no, that that was her getting the fuck about it up under that mountain. Look, marble, that marble does shit where you, I mean, they don't they nothing is an accident. It's like if they do something that seems kind of out of the view, it's done on purpose because they know that we're nerds and we freeze frame shit and we look at shit and we look at shit and we look at shit and we like, Oh, you see that? And we catch shit.

1:12:36 So they know that we're going to catch it. So then once they once they figure out how many people actually caught it and start talking it up, then they're like, OK, this has feet. Let's go ahead and start writing. Then next thing you know, we have a. Movement. Damn. The fact that subconsciously she's still connected to Wanda, that's why when she saw, that's why she saw her body. That's why that was a part of her construct of seeing the dead body of Wanda. That's why, you know, all her memory of the dark hole has been burned away because Wanda destroyed all copies of the dark hole. So any part of the dark hole that was still in her is gone now.

1:13:17 And it's like Wanda being dead, that part that was keeping the spell active and strong in her is gone now. So. You're not listening to me. You're not listening. Agree to disagree. He thinks she's dead, we think she's alive, and we're going to leave it at that and just wait to see what happens in the MCU. Yeah, I'm just saying. So I will say the the sad part, the sad part of these episodes, especially going back to Billy's episode, was, you know, that little glimpse that we did get of William Kaplan. I've liked it.

1:14:02 I was like, it's sweet. Even in that little bit, I was like, oh, he seems like a cool character. And then we find out that he actually like you get to see him guy. We experienced that whole death and I just thought that was so sad. I was like, his mom should be feeling a lot of guilt right now because. They're not not watching the damn Rd. Yes. I was mad. I was like. I was too. I was. I was, yes, I was pissed. I was like, why are you not looking at the road? Why are you not? You're driving, you know. And like literally slammed at his door into a tree. I was like, oh, he's not.

1:14:46 He's not coming back from that. She almost turned the car into the letter U That shit's hard to do. They were they were going fast as fuck. I mean, how hard that's that's really fucking hard to do is to turn a car going sideways and turn it like that. Like she, she literally almost wrapped that motherfucker around a tree like. Please, please do not give ground. They don't. Yeah, they did. They they stay in. They stay in firm. And they don't give a fuck if a 13 year old is sitting in the backseat. They really. Do I feel bad for I feel bad for his parents though, because it's like, how are they going? How are they going to find out that something's wrong? Like like that he that, that William. I mean, when they, there's a chance that they'll eventually find out that William Kaplan is dead.

1:15:31 But it's like during this time they think that William, that their son is still their son, but he's not. So it's like. You're not going to be, you're not going to be able to convince them that that is not their son. They'll they'll just think that whatever happened to him in the accident changed him, changed him. They would always believe that that's their son. Because as far as they didn't know, he didn't die. They saw him decapitated and then they saw him come back. That's one thing. They're OK. That's probably not him. But no, they walked away. He died when they came back. He was alive like for them. He was alive when they left to get help.

1:16:12 He was alive when they came back. Yeah, but what if, what if Billy actually, actually touches their head, closes his eyes and shows them what happened? That's that's still OK. You're right. Wait, you were speechless for a second? Oh damn. He. Was trying not to argue. He was trying not to argue. Damn I'm. I'm feeling myself on that one. Damn, he was trying to. I got to do a victory lap. I'll be right back. OK, I'm back. He was trying not to argue. But no, I'm, but no, I'm just saying. I'm just saying that, you know. Oh, so he can reach into their minds and change their mind, but he can't. He can't read Agatha's mind.

1:16:58 They're human is a witch. She's been around for hundreds of years and again, she's a witch. They're humans who has more mind control. I don't know. There's a whole group of people voting for someone they shouldn't be voting for, so I don't know. Oh my God. OK, so do we have anything else to say about these two episodes? Because we are not about to get into that conversation. Oh my goodness, that definitely needs to be a whit. Now let me stop. We have anything else we want to say about these episodes? Oh yeah, this shut up.

1:17:45 Billy hold on, Billy has the William had the Wizard of Oz posters in his room and. And the figurines that. Was a yellow. Rocky Horror, Yeah, that's. Why? I said the poster. Yeah. What goes with the witches, Rhodes? Yeah, he had the the action figures too. Yeah, and he also had an album. He was listening to the vinyl of the song, which became prominent later as well. Yeah, it's it's things that make you believe that he created. All of this, yeah. It is. It's evidence, yeah. It's. Just like little little Easter eggs is like. It is. I mean, I'm thinking about. It, I mean, it is though, to be honest with you, so. Yeah, I mean and.

1:18:31 I just feel I, I just feel bad for Tommy. Wherever he is, Wherever. He. Is but. I think he said he can feel them. He said he can feel them so. He's still out there. Well damn, Sir. Well. Hopefully. Did I get the body? Damn. Wait, what was what was the name of the deep squid? Was it Tommy? No, it was. Teddy. Timothy. Timothy. Timothy. Oh my gosh. No, that is that is disgusting. Sir, so I'm going to go. I feel bad for Tommy because he out there trying to find him a place in the world.

1:19:13 Leaves in the wind. Slight of candy. Shout, shout, Agatha like not like just losing her fucking mind and throwing, throwing terror crowds on the table, knowing that knives, knowing that swords are falling out of the sky. I'm like, ma'am, if you lost your fucking mind, it's like I'm like, as soon as she started doing it, I was like, like, what? What part? And this she's like, we'll just put him down in in any combination until we run out of swords. I'm like, you're on the witch's road. You don't think those swords are going to magically re magically reload? I mean, it's like, it's not like there's a finite amount of swords. You're in a mystical place. They're going. To was like, ma'am, where did you learn math? Because that.

1:20:00 That's a lot of combinations, ma'am. That is a lot of combinations. I don't think you you thought that out thoroughly, but shout shout out to Shashir because I kept calling her Samir in our in our chat and Anthony corrected me and I was just like, oh. God, he didn't correct me. He didn't correct you? He didn't. I don't think he knew her name. So. I thought you were like subconsciously guiding me, she guiding me, guiding me to the right name. I was like, all I saw was you saying I dumb ass. That's not her name. I was like, who is that? Mike? Who is that? The black one? Who? What are you talking about? Exactly you were you're just like like suddenly like I dumb ass.

1:20:44 I'm trying to show you like here. But yeah, I'm I really hope we can get a little more of her story because I like her character. I, I think that she is, she's like, she, I mean, the fact that the hard part where, where Lilia, Lilia came, came out of a spell and grabbed Tina, pushed him up against the wall. She's like, I thought everything was good. Like we're not good teenagers. She was like, oh, did his whole name. I was like I love it 'cause if I'm not mistaken I think she was on SNL for a SEC for a hot 2nd. Oh yeah, yeah, because I know. I think she's still.

1:21:26 No, that's no, no, that that's Eggy. Eggy's on there now. Her name's Eggy Boom too. But yeah, it's a, it's a different, different one black girl that they have on this note. But that's all. Another episode. We got time to talk. But it's not the same one that that was singing espresso, no. No, no, that's that's eggy boom. OK, So what? OK. But yeah, that's that's that's, you know, the one black girl. See, I'm not gonna start on that. But yeah, I think, I think I like, I like what she adds, like the little just because I like little her little sarcastic like, like jabs every now and then because it's like between her and Agatha and like all of them heard Agatha and Lilia have so many jabs. And again, Patty friggin Lupone ma'am just ate it, ate this, ate that whole episode.

1:22:20 Like, I mean, damn. And the fact and fun fact, her and and Aubrey Plaza actually were roommates during the whole filming. OK. And there, there, there is there a couple of interviews they did where they've had a whole lot of adventures. Like where Pale Lupone, almost Pale Lupone's one of one of her people almost killed almost almost quote UN quote killed her by giving her an infusion of Benadryl. Oh. OK, look it up, look up, look up, look up. Pale Lupone in Aubrey Plaza. But yeah. This interview, Aubrey, Aubrey Plaza was like, yeah, I, I moved in with her and she would tell me, this is what you're going to wear to this issue.

1:23:05 Yeah. It was it was such a great relationship. Between the Turkey, make sure you eat Turkey sandwiches. Yeah. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. I did love the the costumes that they were in. As far as you know, the Wizard of. The team being Maleficent. Yes, Team. OK, being Maleficent. He was like, well, you know, if the cheekbones are cheekbones, I was like, yes, they are very much so. They looked fabulous. But I'm so mad that they put Jen in the evil wit. In the evil. Prone from Snow White costume because that was not cute and what what did she say?

1:23:49 She said we'll we'll we'll have our what did she say? We'll be indignant about the cultural something, she said. Something. She's like. Easy. What? We'll do our our cultural, Yeah, cultural complaints later or something. Like that cultural appropriation or something, She said. It was, It was funny, but I was like, they were dead ass wrong for putting her in that, for putting her in that particular costume because she's like they chose. The they chose the the one Disney which say we know is a potions Master and that's where Jen is a potions master. I know, but still it's like, yeah, everybody else is looking fabulous and she literally looks like a old Chrome. I did not appreciate that but but I otherwise I love the costumes.

1:24:39 OK, the one the one which from the Salem 7, the last one who came up and she turned around and she kind of did that net quick. I was people like that and they, it's like that very precise neck move. It makes me feel like somebody's walking on my spine. It's creepy. I did not like it, but at the same time I appreciated it because it kind of added a little something to that scene because you knew that Lilia was about to die and you knew that, you know, these these spectres, whatever they're supposed to be, you knew quote UN quote, I'm saying this in quotes. You knew that they were about to kill her. And then all of a sudden she she flipped the switch. She flipped the car literally.

1:25:34 And she created her own destiny, but she also got rid of the Salem 7. I loved it, but I was like, now she has to fall. Now she has to die. And I was not, I was not happy about that. South Disney Southern. It wasn't all of them it. Wasn't all of. Them Yeah, well, they, they just couldn't fit them all in that scene, but they, they made it first set them all. It was all of them, OK. It's. Just. Them in the scene, so they just didn't, OK. Shouts been doing another brilliant needle drop. Another brilliant needle drop with time in the bottle. So that song, if it's placed very well, it's going to make me cry. It made me cry when it showed up in the final scene of a discovery, which is, even though it was a different version, but this version, the Jim Croce version that is so ingrained in my head for my childhood.

1:26:28 Because if you were a child of the 80s and you saw the Time Life Classic album commercials that came on Channel 17, that song was always one of the songs that they played on those commercials. It's like stuck in my head. I always, always think of that. There was an episode of The Muppet Show where there was like a guy, a scientist who was making a potion and every time it poofed, he got older. And then he got older, then he got younger again. But it's like, this is an episode of The Muppet Show that I think of every time I see that. You hear that song. But yeah, that's one of my favorite songs. And that then whoever's doing their music is fucking incredibly killing the fuck out of it. Yeah, I will say that they they have not dropped the ball on the music.

1:27:16 Now let's hope that these next two episodes, the finale episodes, episodes 8:00 and 9:00, let's hope they don't drop the ball on these either because I, like I said, I really, really enjoyed six and seven much more than I did the first five. But now I need to go back and rewatch the first five episodes because of what we were saying about Agatha and everything being from her point of view. Because again, I was thinking about everything being from her point of view from the Time Team showed up. I didn't even think about the earlier stuff. So now I got to go back and rewatch it. But OK, so now change your mind.

1:28:03 We just might, we'll see. But if nobody has anything else to say about the episodes, that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.fandomhybrid.com. We are on social media, on all the social media at Fandom Hybrid. You can chat with us on our Discord channel, you can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.

1:29:03 Music.