Agatha All Along, Part 3 (Episodes 8-9) - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #318

0:25 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I am here with Anthony, Michelle and Mike, and we are discussing Agatha all along, episodes 8:00 and 9:00. And I'm going to start this off by saying I finally did go back and at least re watch the first. I think I got through the 1st 4 1/2 episode and I've changed my opinion just a little bit. But it's because I realized what was bothering me more than anything, and it wasn't really the story because I realized I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been because there was some clues that were right there in my face that went completely over my head.

1:11 But I figured it out. It's Katherine Hahn's acting. It's like certain things that she does, and I think we touched upon this in the last episode, but also certain facial expressions she's making. And also it feels like, I think I had this conversation with Anthony. It almost feels like she's breaking the 4th wall without breaking the 4th wall. Like every time she does something or says something that's not completely whatever, it's almost like she's supposed to turn to the TV and go so that we know what she's, you know, what she's intimating. And I don't know, something about it took me out of, it took me out of the show. It took me out of her being this character to her being this actress playing this character.

2:03 And I just, I just couldn't get over it. And it really, I was, I, I have a whole page of notes from just the first few episodes where I was like, how did I miss all of this? I didn't pay attention to none of it. And it was because I was so irritated. And I was just like, OK, so I guess she's just going to have to be in one of those categories of actresses or actors that I just really don't care for the way that she brings her characters to screen. And now that I've had have that in my mind, I'm like, OK, I can enjoy the show a little bit more. So I do enjoy it a little bit more on the second go around.

2:45 There's still some problems that I have with it, but overall, I don't dislike it as much as I did when we discussed the 1st 5 episodes. So cool, glad. To hear it, thank you. Come on over to the train. I'm not coming over to the train. I don't, I don't want you over to the train, you grump, you grouch. I was. I was grouch. I was going to say maybe I was a little harsh. Nah, I, I don't think I was a little harsh. My, my opinion still stands about those first 4 episodes. I, I, I will give him credit.

3:28 The last the the last part, the last half to 3rd of the show was really good. Yeah, those last few episodes were really good. I I still think those first 4 episodes could have been better than what they were. This is my. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really impressed because when we discussed the last two episodes, Anthony actually had a theory. And I don't think he posited it as a theory, but it was just something that he was talking about the show and how the show was being viewed. And he was like, I think this could be something that's a part of teams, you know, something that he's done just like Wanda did, where he created the road, where, you know, what Agatha was saying earlier on that the road didn't exist. It really didn't exist in that kind of influenced the way that she was acting because she was trying to figure things out on the fly.

4:31 And Anthony had not seen Anthony and I had not seen that last episode before them. Mike had. But Anthony, I'm going to tell you, I'm so impressed because once it was coming together, I was like, wait. And then when I went back and watched the first episode, I was like, let me tell you my notes. So even the intro card for the show, I didn't even pay attention to the fact that it said Agnes of Westview. I didn't pay attention to her last name being different. I didn't pay attention to it being the neighbors actual names. I didn't pay attention to any of that stuff.

5:12 And then as we go along through some of the other stuff, like I said, once teen got in there and I noticed something was different, I was like, oh, wait, she just dropped this hint. So Agatha knew this from very early on that teen conjured this. I was like, oh, that that kind of did change the whole way I looked at it. And I was sitting there. I was like, Anthony literally said that that, that, that wait. He also said that that that that I was like he know the. The the only thing I know, the only. Yeah. Thank you. Good job.

5:54 The only thing I got wrong was I thought he was pulling stuff from their heads and that and that real was not real but real was real. That that was. Real. Yeah, real was real. That was really real. But but, she tells him in the very, very beginning, the real is not real. She says it with a straight face. She's not playing. She's not hiding. She's like the rule is not real and in the beginning you can tell she just she had no clue what the hell was going on. No, she had no idea. Especially. When the door appeared, she was like, wait, what?

6:36 Yeah, right. And that was one of the few times that I felt like she was Agatha. Yeah. And I wasn't looking at her as Catherine playing Agatha. I was like, OK, that's that's genuine. So there are certain, certain parts where I believe that she was who it was. But I still feel like a lot of the times when she was trying to be mean or snarky that she was, she was kind of overdoing it. And that was getting on my nerves. But I I think I've talked that point to them. The the other part, the other part was where she was like being mean to them when they were trying to open the door. She was trying to get them to attack her.

7:17 And now at the time I was like, I was just trying to get them to use their power so she can steal. Like it was it was that was something that and then the door just threw her off. She was like, wait, what? What the fuck? Because they didn't attack her. So but she. Told Lily her secret. Yeah. And then it's like, I mean, it's like you can see her frustration. She's like, these motherfuckers are coming to kill me. Can y'all please fucking let me steal your powers so I can defend myself? Like fuck, like hurry the fuck up and hit me. And then then it's like, I mean, just like the look. I love episode 9 when they were when they were like going through her being like the most prolific Marvel serial killer of all time and like.

7:59 Killing. And it's like she and her like getting mad and looking down, then picking up the sand. And it's like, and then she actually did kind of break the 4th wall. She looked and gave you that smirk. You're like, oh, so she's like, oh, she's she was, she was playing that shit up like for for the first, first couple of trials. Then it's like after her trial and she killed Alice, she and she told teen that he was just like his mother. She was like, OK, I know what you did. Go ahead and get this over with so I can get back so we can get back to the real world because I'm sick of being here. And it's like you could tell in the tarot one when he he didn't know what the chariot was. He was like, it's the chariot.

8:42 It's written on the fucking card. Can we hear? Can we hear but do this? Then she started playing. She started playing slap Jack and throwing Carol cards down and having having it rain swords. She was just like, she was just like, I'm ready to fucking go, let's go, let's go, let's go. And it's like she was just so frustrated at that point. Then it really came out when she was back at the beginning, she was like, how the fuck do I get out of here? It's like he tried to explain. She was like, you don't know, shut the fuck up. Get the fuck out of here. Go back around. And I was like, oh, like, yeah, after, after everything. You're like, oh, yeah. She's like, I fucking had it. Where's my goddamn house? I need to get out of here now. Yeah, see, I, I, I feel you on that a little bit. But like, I was getting the impression because when you start thinking about it, she didn't take every trial seriously.

9:30 It was she, the way she was acting was as if nothing's going to happen to me because she's not real and she needs me. So she was really just playing along and really, she really acts like she didn't really give a fuck away when she started throwing the tarot cards down and the swords coming in, She's like, I'm not going to die because he's not going to kill me. So just kept throwing them down. Let's just be done with it. So but but the real big tip off was when he wished he was like, I wish Liza was here to help. And then boom, she burst the door. It's like, yeah. Yeah. But she even, I think she figured it out because I I wrote it down. Episode 3, when they first get into the road and he's looking around, he says, wow, this is exactly how I pictured it. And she was like, it suits you.

10:21 And I was like, wait, does she already suspect at that point? And then after the first trial, when Missus Hart died, she looked, she said, why? I didn't think you had it in you. And he was like, who had what in in them? And she winked at him. She didn't think that he would actually kill somebody. But of course, again, he didn't know that this was something he was doing. And even the stuff that started coming up, like he's creating it on the fly because that's what he does. And I think because she had seen that before. She was like. Mm, hmm. Mm hmm. OK. But even at in the very first episode, when he tries to tell her who he is and the sigil comes up, if you really pay attention, you can hear him.

11:06 It's like, I'm. I'm Billy Maximoff. Yeah, But the sigil comes across and I think she was like, come again. And when he said his name again, she's like, OK. Well, he said William Kaplan at first. Then he said, I'm Billy Maximoff, like second. Yeah. But it I was sitting there looking, I was like, I didn't pick up on any of this stuff before because again, I was so out of it. And it was only like, again, teen Lilia and Jen, those were my three favorite characters. And I mean, when I say Jen went off in episode 8, she was so good. So she was so good.

11:50 And I was just like, yes, I'm, I'm. I feel her anger. I feel what she's feeling. And then for the first part of that whole dialogue she had with Agatha, Agatha was still being kind of playful. Like, say it like, you mean it, Jen. And I was like, oh, you getting on my nerves. But the more Jen kept saying it and her face started changing and you could feel her really feeling it. I was like, OK, I'm, I'm back in it now. Like I said, she does these weird, she makes these weird choices with her acting where it's like half the time you're like, what the fuck are you doing? And the other half, it's like, oh, I believe that you're in the character. Yeah, it's like, shout out to Jennifer for actually being a black character and surviving the whole thing and being able to get her.

12:40 Power off, family. And taking her, taking her agency back from the white woman that bound her. But especially with, with, with how things are going right now in the real world, I was just like, like that seem brought me to tears. I like, I actually actually cried a little bit watching her. It's like getting, getting in, getting yourself back and, and, and actually feeling yourself like I, I felt that I was like, that's pretty fucking awesome. I mean, I will give it to Agatha, though. Once she realized what the situation was, she did seem like she genuinely felt bad. She was like, I didn't know it was you. I, I used to cast spells for banknotes back in the 1920s. I didn't, you know, when, when she mentioned Boston, she was like, oh, that's what happened.

13:27 So when she says I deny your power over me and she says you hold nothing, you hold nothing, you hold nothing. She's still kind of sitting there defying it. And the more that Jen looked at her and just kept saying it, you see her whole face change. And I was just like, OK, she feels, she feels what she has done in this moment. And she, I feel like in that moment, she really understood because wasn't that the same thing Wanda did to you for three years? This woman has been bound for 100 years. Fucking. Years. So what you went through is nothing compared to what this woman went through.

14:09 And I think Agatha really felt it in that moment. I was like, oh, OK, I can get with this. The way she helped Billy at the end do what he was supposed to do. So let me ask a question about this. Does this mean that when he said he could feel Billy, he knew Billy was around but he couldn't find him? And then everything that Agatha did at the end, does that mean that he was holding on to Billy in his mind that whole time? I think he he was, he was inside of his. He held him up.

14:50 I don't know is he either had him. In his. In his conscious he had his consciousness. Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying. They. Were in their consciousness where I. Think so I. Believe so. I believe he was always there. He just, she helped him. Release him. Yeah. Release him and find the place. For him. So when he found a body, he just took him with him. Yeah, he grabbed on to him. OK, Yeah. Because I went when when she figured that out and that whole scene was happening, it didn't really hit me until he said, Agatha, am I killing some boy just so my brother could live? I was just like, that's. So.

15:33 How do you make that decision? But he wasn't though. That boy was going to drown anyway. He was dead. That boy was dead. Let's. Just make that clear. And and and by. The way. Can we, can we get those? Can we get those little? Can we get those little fucking hooligans locked up for pushing someone in a damn lake and drowning them and holding them under the damn water? Can we park them? A. Little off the that actually happens a lot. Yes, I'm surprised. Watch. Tommy Tommy's going to be at Lake Lanier. Watch. You know what? Talk about spirits getting their events. Exactly. See exactly if it's right in, it's like his spirit goes to where spirits hang around and then next thing you know, it's like he's like he's out there running around interacting with all the all the spirits, except they ain't going to do it because you know, he's white. But then anyway, that's cool.

16:25 Yeah. But OK. The other part of this whole final trial that I think did finally get me was Agatha figuring out what she needed to do in order to, you know, get through the trial and get out of the room. Because even up till that point, we still don't know the truth about what happened to her son. You know, Billy has asked her. Rio has, you know, Rio has said something to her about it. And you see her keep avoiding the topic. But whenever she was thinking about her son, that's another part where I felt pulled into the story, 'cause I was like, OK, something didn't happen the way that everybody says it did. Because Rio asked her, why do you let these people think? Why do you let them think these things about you? And I think at this point, acting is just kind of like, because it really doesn't matter. What did she say?

17:27 Because the truth is worse. And what's the truth? That that my son was taken by the person that I love. That's a. Whole I think, I think it hurts more. That hurts her more. It's like she'd rather she'd rather have people. She'd rather have people think that she's a bitch than just to have pity on her for losing her son when he's only 6 and she doesn't want to even think about him. She'd rather think about, have think about. She'd rather just be like, whatever I'm I'm not even thinking about thinking about that. And I think also to the fact that she's this powerful witch and she couldn't do anything to save him. That's got that's got to eat at her too.

18:08 It does and. Her girlfriend took and her girlfriend took him. Yeah, yeah. But I don't still don't like what happened afterwards. So I guess that's what my problem is. I'm not feeling the same energy y'all feeling right now because I'm a little bit upset. Which part? Just. OK. I yeah, I feel bad that you lost your son. I definitely do. But you can you taking and killing all the witches. See, I was hoping that didn't happen. I wanted a different story for her. OK, so we just turned around and made her. But what? But wasn't you the one that said when? Because I said I feel like there's more to Agatha's character than her being this evil. I I think I said this when we discussed one to five I.

18:51 Thought that she just had a bad reputation. I think we go back and listen. I think you said no, Agatha is evil. She doesn't need a redemption story. She doesn't need. Anything. No, I just said she was different. I was me. Yeah, 'cause I was saying I just said she doesn't need a redemption story because I thought she was just normal. And that witches attacker, she can't help but take their power. You know what I'm saying? She got caught up and every time it happens people say it was her fault. That's what I was saying and that's. What I. Thought but they talked her into a bad witch they. Didn't turn her into a bad witch, so no. She was that she's been that way, didn't hear her mom say her mom said that her mom.

19:38 Said that her mom just misunderstood her because she takes. Mom understood perfectly, I think. Her her mom. Her mom probably was a seek saw into the future and saw with her. Which basically which basically. Means and saw saw her daughter. Anyway, 'cause you dated death. So I should have just just stopped. Started with that part right there. So she wasn't a nice hold on, hold on before. Before we go into this train, so I want to 1st 'cause he listens to the show, I want to give the shout out to our secret member, podcast member, Nick. Nick because you know, Nick and I went back and forth about this and Nick was like, oh, you know, she's really good. And, you know, maybe she's the person that wants people to think that she's evil and really good and, and, you know, she's the one that they were like, kick a cat in the block or No, no, no, Nick.

20:28 No, Nick, so just. Grab the cat and they bury the cat because that's the kind of person she, she was a murderous witch before she had the baby and she was a murderous witch after she had the baby. Because there's some people who are saying, oh, she was only killing the other witches because she was trying to keep more time with Nicholas. Now she was doing it before she had them. She's a serial killer. She's she's a she's a witch serial killer. Michael call her Wayne Gacy. With her and she was struggling. She started killing witches, that was. Well, she did that because she was trying to keep death away. She's on her body like they mentioned on the road. OK.

21:12 No, she. Was already done, so about that. Girlfriend in the in when before she had the baby and she. I have question. Either way, you. Slice it. Either way you slice it, she's a lady. I agree with you. OK, This time I just thought that we wasn't going to go that direction and we went that direction. So I was quite disappointed in the last two episodes to be completely honest, that's all. I'm sorry, what? We were going to, yes. Because she doesn't want, she didn't want the narrative that if I, if I'm understanding you correctly, Michelle, no, I just think you don't want the narrative of what we've been saying all along, her being evil just to be evil, right? I'd rather give her son up for power at this point. If we gonna go bad, let's go bad. Let's don't go in between.

22:03 That's all. What do you mean? She she went she she killed witches for centuries. I. How's that been? Bad she killed. She probably killed witches before. She killed witches before, during and after her son was here. She wanted her to have a reason. She wanted her to have a reason. Sometimes people ain't got. A reason? Them to really understand her and realize that they typecast her as the bad witch and she really wasn't and she was going to let people believe that because her mom instilled that in her see I was going a little bit more deeper with this but now they kept it the way it was she's. Bad just because she's bad, she's. Bad she Sometimes people are just bad.

22:44 You can't. You can't explain it. There's no complicated theory for it. She's just trying to. I get what you're saying, but I mean, I'm sorry. Pointed to that, she really wasn't. And that's what I was saying as well. Yeah, that's what I was saying. Don't give me that. So yeah, but even. Billy. Wait, why are you yelling at me? We didn't. We didn't. We didn't cool off the off the other. Ain't nobody yelling, ain't nobody yelling. Even. Well, I'm on they side now. So even even Billy. By myself. Cast her as as the evil witch, you know, even Billy cast her as as the wicked witch. So even on some level he knew, you know? Yeah, but then we didn't have to make it that bad. And I didn't need the montage of her killing them over centuries and centuries.

23:30 I didn't need that. And she looked like she enjoyed it. She. Enjoyed it. She loved disasters that she was president. That we like we made Wanda crazy, we making her and the just the serial killer. She was on the Titanic, she was at the Hindenburg disaster not. Because she was Jolene. I just thought, well, that was because Death was following her. Like Death wouldn't leave her alone. So everywhere she went, Death came and. So here's the question that I have in regards to death and, and their relationship and stuff, because you get the you get the idea. And again, I wasn't feeling it in the first few episodes, but I kind of felt, I kind of felt it a little bit more in the last few episodes. So you get the feeling that both of them loved each other very much.

24:19 Like Death really loves Agatha. You could see it when Agatha was basically rejecting her. You could see how much it was hurting her. You can see how much it hit it. It hurt her when she came from Nikki the first time. But in the first episode when they were arguing with each other and I I guess it was because the dark hole was was hiding her from the other witches so Death couldn't find her either. But Death was like one really pissed off about not being able to find her but 2 was also very hell bent on killing her. Do we know if there was a specific reason that Death was after her or was it just that? OK, well, since you were supposed to burn at the stake and you got away, now it's one of those things where I have to it. It's like a balance thing.

25:08 OK, you know, because if we pull. If we pull a little bit of what death is, how she miss what she is in the comic books, she doesn't really have the capacity to care for anyone. But what she does desire are people that will will give her deaths. That's why she was in fact not infatuated, but that's why she was attached to Thanos. And dimples. She yeah, she corrupted him at a very well. She knows she got him when he was an infant to to be into her and and offering up lives to her because you have to realize she's like a a she's like sort of like not even like the celestial, sort of just a part of the natural order of things.

26:04 So being around in the Thing, they kind of made Agatha with Thanos was the comic books, because that's kind of what his whole motivating factor was, appeasing her and trying to court her by offering her all these deaths or whatever. And I think she did that too. She was taking, she was taking that that role that Thanos had. But instead, I think she was doing at a certain point to keep her away from Nicholas and I. In her mind that she may have, she may have believed that. You know they're going to Mensch. I mean merge things together because for the non comic book people, you gotta give death some feelings. She has feelings. I think she really did care for Agatha. But The thing is when a person has to go, the person has to go. She.

26:52 She cared. She cared as much about Agatha as a book. He cares for his gambler. But. I'm but that's you going through the converse. They giving her a little bit more depth here. OK, but. If you follow everything Marvel does, they still take elements of the. I'm just saying they added they gave her a little bit more depth that she actually probably did care for someone and that's why the only reason actor is to this point. And you know what, Michelle, what you just said makes a lot of sense because if if she was using those deaths, if she was luring, you know, not that she was doing it to steal the witch's power, yet she was doing it for selfish reasons. But if she was also doing that to placate death, then that would make sense for why death chose that particular time to come from Nikki.

27:40 Because remember, they were in the village earlier and she was trying to do it and Nikki didn't want to do it anymore. And it was that same night that she came for him. So actually make a whole lot of sense. So this is the thing that that death, death would be like, OK, well, that's what if she thinks that I'm just going to like not come get Nikki because she's killing all these witches. She can believe that and not just let her kill him. And then when Nikki basically convinced her to stop doing it and this was like, well, I have no reason to keep him around. So she went and got well because and all of it. Did I mean she's a natural order of things.

28:20 His time has been up to be completely. Right, but. If but she I think she did care. See, I agree with what you're saying, but I'm adding the extra layer that Marvel tends to do. So you're still keeping it with the Marvel level, but they actually give you that bonus whipped cream at the top, which is that she actually did care for Agatha enough to leave her son-in-law because she was getting those bodies. But if you're not giving me the bodies, it's his time. It's like it's been his time. Like how old was this little boy? 6, It's been 6 years. I gave you time and I told you from the beginning that I'm going to come and I can't tell you how much time I'm going to give you, but you gave me bodies and I care for you but I had to take them just like now I have to take you. You are past your expiration date. Like I love you, but you are like completely past your expiration date.

29:15 Also, while she was under the spell, it's like she wasn't, she wasn't giving death any bodies. It's like like death is like I, I have a theory that I'm sorry, I have a theory that Agatha and death, other than a relationship, I think they actually had an arrangement where that's the whole reason that Agatha killed so many witches was because her and death had a relate. Her and death had a deal where she kept giving her bodies and and they would like just out of love or just, you know, to keep her going. Like, you know, I won't come. I won't come for you personally if you keep giving me bodies. But I think after Nikki dies she I. I seriously doubt Agatha.

29:55 I'm talking about in the first. After that I'm talking about after that when she kept killing people like even even death of death probably like well, OK, I'm I still took him but it but she was still giving her body so she's like, well, I'll leave you alone for now. So but when she. Couldn't find her. She couldn't find her because of the dark hole. She said something about that in the 1st episode. Right. But after, after When did that? When? Did that occur though? When did what occur? When did she eat the dark hole? Probably sometime in the 1750s cause Nikki was born in 1750. Agatha had the dark hold for what, 200 years? Yeah, I was just trying to figure out because she still was killing those people, I feel like before. At that point, she probably was just doing it just because she wanted to do it.

30:44 She was angry. And at that point she has nothing. Like there's nothing stopping her. But Death wouldn't need to look for her because if if Death is finding a circle of bodies of witches. You know what? I think that's kind. I think that's kind of a plot hole. Because she was. He died in 1750. Nicholas. 1756. 1756 and so she's been she's been killing witches since then. If she got the, if she got the dark hold in like 200 something years ago, it just seems like I would, I wish they would have put it. I wish they would have put it in. I wish they would have mentioned it or, or like, but they didn't. They they, they, they never showed how she got the dark hole.

31:39 And she obviously didn't get it by trading her son. So it's like it's kind of, it's kind of a, it's kind of a hanging thread where it's like, yeah, this is like a hanging thread in your back. Like how? Well, you know what I would think maybe, OK, if we're, if we're going with this theory that Death actually does care for Agatha, like she actually loves her. Maybe once she took Nikki, she felt like, OK, let me leave her alone for a bit because she didn't want to do it. You could see that in her face the first time she saw her and she was just basically like, I don't want to do this but I have to do this because again, it's the natural order of things. So once you what? What was it that Agatha told her? She was like, if you do this, I will hate you forever. OK, I'll give you a few years.

32:24 And like we said, as long as she was flying bodies, death was good. But that one time Nikki was like, I don't want to do this anymore. We can kill witches tomorrow. I think Agatha at that point realized if Nikki stopped her once, there was no way he was going to go back to doing that because he had been questioning her about this ever since, you know, that we saw. So this was something he didn't want to do. Now she probably didn't tell him about what the arrangement was or whatever, but she knew when he told her. Hey, we can, we don't have to do this today. We can kill the witches tomorrow. She did say something to him about I don't know how much time I have with you. I can't, you know, I can do all this stuff with my magic. I can't cure what ails you.

33:12 I can't give you more time, and I don't know when she'll come for you. I really think Agatha had an inkling that Death might come for him. If you look at the way she treated him that night, she was very She was very touchy feely with him. She was very motherly. She was very like she was treating him like it would be the last time she saw him. Even the way that she. Slept. She slept with him all up under him like she. She hadn't had him wrapped. Up and like, like like she was trying to hold on to him so it wouldn't. Go. So I think she she kind of figured the time was coming close. And then with the way that it happened, like, OK, you're deaf.

33:56 You ain't supposed to be scared of nobody. If you really wanted to hurt Agatha, if that was really your MO, you could have taken Nikki while Agatha was right there watching, while she was pleading with you, just to be done with it. She didn't have the guts to face Agatha, I don't think, because of what she feels for her. She was like, OK, you know what? I'm going to take him, but take him beyond Death's door. And then I'm just going to leave her alone, let her kill the witches, let her be angry, whatever. Let her do it 'cause I think at this point Death is like, OK, I owe her that much. I I should give her that much. But you've been, you've been hitting for 200 years now. I'm pissed because.

34:41 Yeah, my, my, the, the reason why it's hard for me to wrap my head around that concept is in the comic books, death only does things that would maximize the number of deaths that occur. So if she, if you believe that you love her and she loves you, and that's going to cause you to create more deaths, then of course she's going to be like, oh, yeah, I love you. I care for you so much, but she's actually indifferent to it as long as you continue to give her bodies. But if you look at her, if you look at her facial expression, then that's look at the way that she acts. Oh yeah, she's a great actress. She cares about action, but you got to go that. Is awesome.

35:25 She's a great actress. But you can still fall in love with one of your. But no, she can still fall in love with one of her minions. Who's giving her, who's giving her death? She still can fall in love with one of them. We we got to give her more death. Death. OK. Definitely. Not clear cut. OK, Yeah, it was. Death, Death. Death. Death, Death. Death, like give her some extra like, that's the one thing I do love about Marvel doing now is giving a little more Death into a person. Seeing a person. Killing more people. Being objects, you know what I mean. OK, I do have a comic book related question that kind of sort of has to do with this show is gonna go way off left field.

36:10 But we we heard mention of it in in the first episode. Did I read correctly that Mephisto is actually Agatha's father? No, that I did not. No, OK, I saw that somewhere and I was like. OK, I mean, I didn't look it up, but I. Don't know, OK. I was just wondering, 'cause it, it came across, it came across my news feed on, I forgot one of the sites and I was just like, I have not heard Anthony nor Michael mention this at all. And I feel like if that was the case, that's something, if, if not Anthony, that's something might definitely would have meant.

37:01 I would have yelled that shit. I would have been, I would have been like, hell yeah. But Daddy confirmed. Daddy confirmed. Two children are black heart and Gray light. Yeah, OK. Yeah. Her her father's never been identified. See if the thing about the thing about Agatha Harkness is she's really like not even AD list character in the combo list. She she's never had a series dedicated to her. She's never even had a one shot as a like she's literally just a side character side character. OK. She's like a she's like, she's like a she's like Mr. Miyagi for witches, basically.

37:42 It's like she does. She's not, she's not going to be. She's something, someone, you know, but she's not someone who's going to be out there because she basically just counsels witches and shows them how to be better witches. That's basically all she did in the comic books. She just got a bigger she she got a bigger platform just because of how Katherine Hahn played her in one division. Yeah, but. So she went a totally opposite way. She was helping and guiding witches to just completely destroying and killing them. Well, I, I guess that's what that's what Anthony was saying, that they gave her that they gave her what Thanos was doing in the comic book. So that would make sense if that's the case. Well, she was she, I guess she would be like chaotic and neutral. Like she wasn't really good or bad. It was like, oh scary witch, you are very, very powerful, but your shit is kind of wild.

38:36 Let me kind of help you out here. And see, that's what I wanted for her. I really wanted complete Gray for her. I really did. I wanted the neutral. She's straight chaos. Like she thrives on that shit. It's like she that's why she went on the road. She was like, oh, this is going to be chaotic as fuck. I'm in, let's go. And This is why she went along with Wanda in one division. And she's like, oh, I can, I can act a fool and do all this other shit and then pretend to be all this other stuff and wear spandex and shit. Hell yeah, let's do this. Let's see where this goes. That's basically her mantra is like, let's see where this goes. That's why when I was arguing back and forth with Nick, I would accept that she would be chaotic neutral, because then everything she does is really for her benefit, whether it be good or evil. But no, she's chaotic evil, Yeah. I mean, you can't, we can't even bounce back from that. If it was like 2-3 rounds while you had Nicholas, OK, while you had Nicholas, you did it.

39:35 I can't understand. But when it was over, like you went on a complete world tour. Yep, all based on a song she made-up. Conversely, though, if you if you think about it, I mean it, she out she was to do what she's doing. Like even if it was for her kids, she's still like kill. She's using her using your kid to kill people like that mean that's that's straight up evil anyway. Oh, that's like a whole other therapy session. That's a whole other therapy session. Understand if you're trying to keep your kid alive, I do. Not using him to do it though, that's. Why?

40:17 Hey, you trying to keep him alive? You just don't know. You just don't know how well. Turn it into a 7. How the? 7 is not bad to me. They're not really bad. The seven, they, they, they really do need to come and kill her. No, they need therapy. The the seven need therapy like because why do they? Need therapy. Their life was destroyed by. Their parents got their parents got killed. It's like they they could, they could have gone to a therapist and been like and say I want to kill her. Should I kill her? And if there's been like no. When you find out that the person that killed your parents is a serial, in your own words, Mike a witch is a killer killer.

40:58 There ain't enough therapy in the world. That is a vengeance tour. That is revenge that is. We need just sure she doesn't do this to anybody else. I'm trying. I'm just trying. I'm just trying to find a different solution. I'm sorry, I'm just trying. No, I mean, that's the solution right there. They should have killed. And then after all of this, after her helping Jen, her helping Billy, when she gets to the end and she realized she can't whoop Death's ass, then she's like, Oh yeah, OK, take the boy excuse. After he, after he, after he powered her up. I really thought she was going to redeem herself. I was like, Oh my gosh, she's going to save this boy. The.

41:41 Only reason she did it, the only reason why she did it was because when he got in her head and said is this what happened to Nikki? She was like, I can't do this to another boy. I think that's the only thing that's like that small piece of I'm not even going to call it redemption. I'm going to call it regret. She was like, OK, get away. I can't do this. But beforehand, she just threw him out there. There you go, Deaf. I'm good. Yeah, I. Think about like think about like this. This is the second time that Wiccan has mentioned Nicholas and she's had pause. The first time was when was when she was she was draining Alice and he did that a little bit. If you were done that a little bit earlier, he probably could. No, actually this is the third time. Then, because he asked her.

42:25 He asked her after she recovered from his injury. He asked her, he said what really happened to your son. And she, she got up and she made her snarky thing. You hurry up and recover 'cause we need to keep going. Well, yeah, yeah. So that's the third time. I, I was talking about like stuff where, where like, where like powers were kind of involved, like where, where, where like certain, like, you know, like, like where certain death was getting ready to happen, like like where she was killing Alice or where death was getting ready to take him and she end up end up getting the kiss of death and, and so and turning and turning into problem. Best psycho psychoactive mushrooms ever.

43:07 If you ever got it, I. I I was looking, I was looking at it when they, when they started sprouting. I was like, man, those shits will blow your. When she told her, she said why don't you plant something while you had it? Yeah, she's like, yeah, plant some azaleas while you had it. So. What? So what so Sparky can eat him again? She can see see get boner get get Ralph Boulder to feed Sparky Sparky some more. Like damn. He's dead now. I will say this Wiccan's superhero costume reveal, I loved it. I love it the way that he just can't kind of came in there. I loved it because I was like, he is very much channeling his mother right now.

43:52 Yeah, just comic accurate too. It's comic accurate too. With some vision in there too. Yeah. And his mother, 'cause I like how because in the comics, Wiccan only has a headband. It's just like a solid headband. It's not the crown that Wanda had on, OK? Like, like, like the crown that he has on in the show. I actually like that change. I think that that was a really good change. It looks good it. Looks good on him. So like naturally towards the end of the show I'm like, OK, so when we gonna see him again, 'cause. Probably Vision Quest. Oh yeah, but Vision Quest is not coming out till 2026, right?

44:39 Yeah, when young younger visuals they coming out till 2020. Eight or something. Then they need They haven't even scheduled Young Avengers yet. OK, Yeah. We, we don't, we're, we're, we're teasing, we're fooling ourselves by thinking that's going to come soon. So let's just focus on stuff that actually is closer to coming, which is vision quest. I mean, shit, he might, he might be. No, I don't think gonna be in Secret Wars. I that I can't really think of off the top of my head. I can't think of anything coming up that they could be in. But but I think that I know that Vision Quest it Vision quest makes the most sense because I mean, vision is technically their dad, their daddy. They share wiring or whatever. And it's like you kind of have to be there. There's a connection there.

45:24 So I mean, there could be, I mean, I can't really think of anywhere else that they could, they could really come in unless they try to shoehorn them in, which I hope they don't. I just want them to create something that where they actually fit conveniently into instead of being forced in. Like, you know, right? I've had enough of that. OK, so I think the only thing that really bothered me about this episode, and it's it's like a small thing, but it's one of those things that I caught. If you thinking, and Michelle will tell you, I have an issue with timelines. Like I have to figure out how things match up and stuff like that. So she makes the mention when she's trying to teach him how to how to find Billy.

46:16 She was like, imagine you're in your bedroom, you're 10 years old. William Kaplan was 13 when the car accident happened. So there's there's a three-year age difference. So that means that although William Kaplan is 16 right now, Billy is only 13 and he has a boyfriend, an older boyfriend. That's just it's, it's a little icky to me. You think you're thinking about the wrong. Thing no eat himself up we have had this conversation with invisible and yes so it it's one of those things that stuck out to me like he.

47:01 Beat himself up. I mean like literally over a day he went from a toddler to a 10 year old. Yeah, so he can age himself up. So that means that technically speaking, he's younger than that, which makes it. Worse. See you see your your, your regret. You're 30. Days old I. Mean, Nicole, you're snowballing. Hold on, Wait a minute. Just slow them slowly Rolls. I'm just saying it's very weird. So really, how old is he? Because how long has Agatha been under the spell? She's. Been under the spell spell for three years. Three years. He literally went from birth to age 10 in a matter of a couple of weeks I believe.

47:43 OK, so he's really three years old. Yes. So that's why you can't think about like that he. Aged up because that means that means that means that means boyfriend boyfriend's a sexual predator and we can't have that so it's. Like he's mature enough. He aged up, he aged himself up, OK, because he had to to get into that, to be in that mind frame and that body. He aged up and he he's the only person who can do that. Yeah, him and his brother are the only people who can do that and like and and adjust because. The show In the show, did they age themselves up or did she age them up? No, they aged themselves.

48:26 They aged, did they? That that that's a sticky wicked because it could. Be OK. You know what, let's not go there. I'm I'm sorry I brought it up because. She probably because they them up. Yeah, they, they because they looked at each other. They looked at each other and smiled. And then they aged up. It's like they aged themselves up twice like that. They then because. Yeah. Because she was Wanda. Was like no, no, no, no. Wanda was like don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do. It Yeah. And they Billy. Dee And they did, yeah. Yeah, OK. So they can age themselves up. No, he can age himself up. So that's, that's how that fixed that for you. He aged himself up. OK, OK, I, I, I can go with that. But some.

49:06 Some some some things writers just don't think about. They just kind of just go along with where they need to go and. Try, you know, it's one of those conversations that we always have when it comes to like vampires, like Vampire Diaries, you know, 150 year old vampires going to high school, Twilight Drag. I mean, you always think about. This when you're. Talking about, there's one of those things that you kind of, it's weird because you're thinking about this like, OK, this is an immortal character. Or if you thinking about like Monster girl and and Rudy and invincible, it's like, OK, but what are they supposed to do? Like they, they can't really date somebody in their age range because like with Monster girl, she's 25, but she looks 12.

49:53 So it's always one of those things. And I think that's something that people need to talk about more because everybody's like, oh, that's 150 year old vampire. They sitting there, you know, trying to date a high school girl that's being predator. Who the fuck are they supposed to date? If that was the age they were when they died? I think, Anthony, I think you always say this, a lot of people, they get stuck in that trauma from around that time. So it's just, it's just one of those weird things. Not vampires, they grow with time, you understand they mature. It is sticky with them though. OK but who nobody supposed to date because they all dead. So that is true.

50:38 They have they can't like I'm not going. I'm looking like I'm like a fresh 19 year old. I'm not going to see her and date an 80 year old that's going to die next week. Some people do now, but yeah, OK, we can, we can, we can get rid of, we can go move forward from this, this age. That they may have, I think they thought about it, but you just answer your question like they showed us in one division that Billy could age up when he wanted to. So it is an explanation for if they never kind of showed that, then I would be with you with OK, he's 10 and a 13 year old body.

51:22 Then when the 13 year old turns into 16, he's 13 dating an 18 year old. That's a little bit. That's like a going into high school, dating someone leaving high school. But yeah, yeah, 'cause I was going to say that, that'll turn into a whole different conversation. Billy aged himself up so he is currently 16. Yeah, OK, We'll, we'll just go with that. OK. Moving on, moving on from that. Agatha is a ghost. Do we really? Do we? Really. But that, but that, that's her. That's her main form in the comments though.

52:03 She's Gray haired and she's a ghost. OK. OK. Thank you. Because I didn't like that either. And, and it's not that I don't like it because, OK, she exists as a ghost, which I kind of feel like maybe that was what she was trying to do. She was like, OK, let me get one over on death. And then at the same time, let me still exist in a powerful form. I don't know how that's going to go, 'cause I don't know how ghosts in this particular universe, in this particular world, just how much, how useful they can be. I mean, we saw she had to get like really emotional and angry in order to even be able to pick up the brooch. But it's like ghost, huh?

52:44 What'd you say that? Was like ghost Patrick. Squeezing it with with with the with the penny like pushing. It up the wall. Yeah, but it's it's like, OK, so now you're gonna go try to help Tommy find his brother as a ghost. Yeah, I can already tell you're about to be more irritating as a ghost than you ever were alive. Duh, of course she is. But she. Can go in, she can go anywhere she wants to go. She can talk. She's going to be talking to Wiccan and Wiccan is going to be talking to her and nobody's going to be able to see her. So we're just going to look like he's talking to himself. So people going to be like, what the fuck is it? It's the, it's the, it's the, it's the same old ghost friend trope where the ghost friend talks, talks, talks to the human and the human tries to talk to them and they're that everybody's like, Oh my God, it's not because crazy. Who the fuck is he talking to?

53:37 So that's where we're going, yeah, unless, unless activist shows herself and says do all the time and scares people. Which she probably does, but would be annoying. Yes, it's going to be. The conversation that they were having right there at the end, OK, so even though we see Wiccan has some of his mother's abilities, he was able to create the whole witch's road and everything that happened. And of course the people who died within the witch's road, they actually died in real life. But I like the fact that even though they show the similarity between him and his mother, they also show the difference because once he realized what happened, what he did, he was immediately remorseful.

54:18 Like, I don't want to do this anymore because people died. And she had to sit there and kind of convince him, like, well, you actually saved the life. You saved Jen. And let's be honest, I was going to kill them all in my basement the first day anyways, so. Basically. But OK, Jen crawling out of the ground and flying away. So obviously that means we're probably going to see her again. What is her character like in the comics? Because I've heard a little bit of. All right, so I'm surprised that I haven't heard about this more because Jennifer Kale in the comics is white and blonde. First of all, OK, but I have I'm I'm glad I haven't heard like, Oh my God, they they color switched above like whatever. But she's also featured in the midnight Suns, which has been with which they have have announced that is in production. So and she has she has so she has she has a link to ghost rider.

55:24 She has linked to blade, she has linked to moon night. She has a link to everybody else that's been in that. So she can basically basically go anywhere from there. OK, so OK, I, I'm, I'm looking for I, I hope, I hope she gets that because I really love Sasheer's performance. Like I thought she she did an excellent job in. This show, she was one of the best parts of this show. Yeah, she really was. I really want, I really want to see if they get, if they figure out a way to get Lilia back somehow because they didn't show her dead, they just showed her going back to start training again. Yeah. So thank you. I mean, I, I wouldn't mind seeing her, but I but I think, but I'm pretty sure that she's gonna come up again somewhere, somewhere along the line. OK.

56:11 OK. But yeah, overall I will say aside, aside from my earlier reservations in the way I feel, I I kind of do like the way the show wrapped up. And I particularly liked the last four episodes way better than I did the first five. But like I said, there were things that I just missed with the first five that once I went back and looked, I was like, oh, OK, so I missed that. That makes sense for this, that and other. So I think what I'm just going to have to do for myself is even though it might be hard with certain things, I have to go back to my rule of watching things at least twice before we record. Because other than that, I I'm I miss, I missed a whole bunch of stuff because I didn't go back and rewatch the episodes. So yeah, that's.

57:06 Right real quick as some of some I forgot since you were talking about Jennifer Kell, she is actually related to Johnny Blaze. Wow. Yeah, like their cousins. Or wait, hold on then. She is the cousin of Johnny Blaze. OK. So it makes it easier for them to bring him, bring you that Ghost Rider in if they want, if they want to redo it just so. I mean, it'd be, it'd be kind of weird. It'd be kind of hard to explain her being Nicholas Cage's cousin, but I mean, you know, it could. Happen.

57:49 Just maybe they would just. She could still be his cousin and he'd be white. Yeah. You know their design. I mean, I'm not even, I'm not even worried about that part. I was just, I was just more thinking like how are they related? Because if you think about it. OK, OK, here's here's here. I got it. I got it right here. So Jen learns that she she was doing something with John Danny Ketch and Johnny Blaze's Ghost Rider. Like both of them were Ghost Rider. So she's doing something to both of them. So she finds out that she's that she's Johnny Blaze's cousin. She's a cousin of of them descended from the noble from noble Kale. He's the Ghost Rider of the 17th century. So, OK, so, so there's a relation to that, so. OK, OK.

58:39 But that but I mean that that that leads them into finding a ghost rider that leads them into doing midnight Suns that leads, you know, so I'm so that that's basically her her foray into it into. Like, yeah, I and I think they've actually been talking about like, I know that there's been rumors for the last couple of years about them looking for a Ghost Rider, them doing a Ghost Riders project. So, but I mean, it's kind of I think at this point with Marvel, I think until I actually see something like trailer wise concept art, something like that, I'm really at a point where I'm just like, I'm not gonna put any thought into what they could be doing years in, you know, in years.

59:31 Because like, they have so many things that they've scrapped now that were supposed to happen. Like Eternals is scrapped, Blay, Even though at D 23 Brazil, they were like, we're still committed. We still like what Mahershala was going to do with the character. We just, you know, we got to work on it. It's been how many years now? We haven't heard anything about Shang Shi 2. Moonlight 2 is probably not going to happen. There's just so many things out there. You know, I, I've seen some things now about the mutant saga that's supposed to come out and you know how they're going to be incorporating the X-Men into the MCU. And I'm like, but y'all still got this shit over here that y'all haven't done yet.

1:00:20 So I just, I'm at a point where is until I see some stuff like the trailer they released a couple of weeks ago where we saw clips of what if we saw clips of Iron Heart? We saw clips of I forgot. Yeah. So I. Can can I? Can I comment? Yes. 2 Two things. One, just because the crap is filmed still doesn't mean it's going to come out because we've seen HBO have stuff wrapped up, done, ready to go. We're going to talk about HBO. They just got rid of it. So that's that's one and two it it I think I'm not going to go off on the studio rant, but I think the the biggest issue that Marvel has has has created this monster where in its effort or in their, in their attempt to try to do all these things, like to have all these things they want to do all these things they want to accomplish, things are falling away. Like instead of focusing on one thing or two things at a time, they've divided up so many different things that things are running into each other.

1:01:47 People are waiting around for scripts to be done and they're like, you know, I'm going to go do this other thing while y'all get this shit together. Directors have these ideas about what they want to do. Like no, we can't do that because we want it to relate to this other thing that we're doing that we plan to do. Like, well, I can't do the movie I want want to do because you want me to do something that's going to set up something later. And and then you know, you have the TV shows where you can't use these characters because we're going to do this. And this is creating this big mess where things just falling off thing because things get pushed. Actors go do other things and the stuff that you are doing isn't quality.

1:02:28 It isn't great because there's no like the clear vision is gone. Like it's gone and I, I don't know, Marvel and some other franchise I won't, I won't name on this on this podcast. They just lost it. The magic is gone. It is. And I, I think we're, we're starting to get to the point where where everything we're getting is aggressively mediocre. It's just they just trying to really, really hard to give his mediocre stuff. I agree. Yeah, I'm sorry.

1:03:11 I I agree on some things, but I just have my, I have my rose colored glasses on where I just suspect everything to be good and I downgraded from there. So but there there have been some things that could have been way better. I mean, I think. This could have been way better, huh? Oh yeah. Yeah, Yeah. I think I'm kind of in that happy middle where I'm like, OK, I don't go in with high expectations anymore because there have been some things that are just kind of like, I think the thing that I'm most excited for right now just in the last week. What? What?

1:03:52 Go ahead. What you were you about to say, Captain America? No, actually, I mean, I am just because I like Sam Wilson. I am looking forward to that. I I'm looking forward to it, but I'm, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic because that is one of those other productions that have had issues with it. You know, they've had the story change. I think the first time they had a, they had a movie and they screen tested it, it got horrible comments and reviews. So they had to go back and redo some things. So I'm cautiously optimistic, but because I am Sam Wilson fan, I, you know, I'm looking forward to it.

1:04:39 I'm really looking forward to Thunderbolts because that looks like it's going to be a fun movie if nothing else. And they just released today, the season 3 final, the trailer for the final season of What If Anthony, don't you don't you do that because Anthony was like, it's OK. I'm so sorry. That trailer was so good. And then at the end to get Storm holding Mulnair, I was like, I was in my office at work. And when I saw that I went and I was like, oh wait, I am at work. Let me bring it down a notch. But those two projects? I'm looking forward to you didn't even I'm like I feel. She I was going to tell you better, she posted in. I thought you'd be have seen it.

1:05:26 No. How could you do this? Oh. You didn't see it bad said it been bad. Oh my gosh, yes it is. I'm. Devastated. OK, so when you get off of. Here you didn't. See anything? Clearly. See. No, don't listen to him. Don't listen to him. Don't listen to him, Devil. Trailer too. Oh, is there? Is there? I don't know. Is there a what trailer Daredevil? I don't think it. I don't think there's a full trailer for it. There's. A teaser in it. I think, I think there's a teaser. I didn't know, I think. I think they just, they just, they just flipped what they had for they. Need to trust you now. Uh oh, Andy, you in the dog house?

1:06:08 It's. Me that you didn't miss anything with the weather trailer. You know what? Whatever. No, no, no, don't stop that. Don't even. Anyway, y'all got anything else to say about Agatha all along? Just in general or about the last two episodes? Because we're not about to listen to Anthony's. Classroom right now. I'm sorry. I was like totally all for it. I really was. But it it just, it went kind of downhill. It's funny, We we, we reversed. I stayed the court. I. Know the reason why the court, I know the reason why. So that's just how I feel. It was this blah at the end.

1:06:52 Yeah, OK, real quick shout out to shout out to Aubrey Plaza for having the best witch cackle ever. That she does. When when she when when they were going down on the brooms like that cackle and the cackle in episode 8 when she was on top on the roof. Herb was looking like the fuck. Like that shit was crazy shot to them revealing that that Wiccan, that team was Wiccan made the road by doing it kind of usual suspect style. Like just going going through and seeing stuff and having it relate to what what he was seeing and stuff like that.

1:07:33 Like that was that was crazy. I mean, if if we wouldn't have had certain clues about it, it probably would have hit a little bit better, but it still hit pretty good for me. I think Anthony even called that the fact that the the witch's role, you know, had stuff from off his walls. And I think Michelle said something about the posters being referenced. So right. I was, I don't know how to approach this. Like did Agatha, I keep think, keep wondering, did she conjure her? Did she conjure Nicholas?

1:08:19 When? Because it because she said he, she made him from scratch. Oh, that's OK. So yes, that is the question I had as well because I was like So what Immaculate Conception is that what she did? I But if you go by what she said and yeah, I think. It would, I mean it. We It's been proven that witches can get themselves pregnant from not having sexual intercourse. Yeah. It was proven one division, Wanda had twins without having sex. Well, she probably was having sex with Vision, because remember, Vision was turning himself.

1:09:02 Into now. Now we, now we get into the Steely Dan conversation. I'm not trying to hear all that. No, that's not where I was going with this. I'm just you brought it up. You brought it up. I wasn't trying to go there. I was. I was just saying because because I think the way, the way that she said that she made him from scratch and I was just like, that kind of made me made me kind of like think just like it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she found a way to to get herself pregnant. I mean, she even said she didn't, she didn't say a spell. So that would be interesting if if that's what she did. Yeah, it's like, I mean, maybe, maybe that's maybe that's why, that's why Rio was trying.

1:09:50 That's why Death was trying to get it was trying to get him because, because you see how she reacted while she was trying to get Billy, because Billy was Billy was he wasn't created naturally. And he was throwing off the natural balance. And he was, he was an abnormality. So she was like, he's got to go. So maybe that this is the same thing? So yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, it does. It makes sense. So I mean, it could be, I mean, because I mean, you know, I mean you can't date somebody whose ex's death is like, how do you compete with that? It's like if you if in and then it's like all of a sudden one night, one night you come up and her it's like who you talking to my ex? OK, talk to her all you want to.

1:10:33 Don't worry about. Don't worry about me. It's like how you gonna get death mad at you? Like that's messed up. Yeah. But yeah, I enjoyed this whole series. I I, I enjoyed pretty much every episode. I I found, I found things, I found things love about all of them. Some of the episodes, couple of episodes kind of dragged for me, but I really enjoyed this. It's I enjoyed it like I enjoy the Ant man, the Ant man movies. They're not like top Thursday. They're like mid tier. This is a mid tier show for me. OK, but I enjoyed it. I I actually I really enjoyed a lot of it. There's some moments the singing, the singing parts are top tier for me. I think I think they did an excellent job at those. I think that a lot of the the last the things that they did well, the reveals the the music in this the music in this series was top notch.

1:11:33 I love I love almost everything musically that they did. The you the you should see me in a crown beat drop is still 1 of this. This still resonates with me. It's like I'm still like that shit was genius, like perfect, and I like a lot of stuff that it that it did this. It's right there. It's it's, it's, it's right there mid tier for me. So I I really enjoyed it. It's, it's something that I that I do find myself going back just to catch stuff like you, but I really enjoyed it. So what would its watch ability rating be for you?

1:12:15 I'd have to think about that. For. Everyone in this. Group out of 10 it's about a about a six and about a 6 1/2 or 7. No, it's no, it's no, no, I take it back. It's a solid 7 because there there's certain episodes I would definitely watch again. There's certain episodes that wouldn't like the the the one where they went into Alice's parents house and she broke the curse. I'll actually really like that episode. The the episode where episode 8 I could watch over and over again. I think they'll any episodes 8-9 I could rewatch a lot. Episode 1 I could kind of give or take like and episode episode 2 I could watch, I could rewatch too. So it's a bit of a good 7/7 and 1/2 for me. OK, Anthony, I have to think about it because again, I'm still even even though I have a little bit more knowledge about what the 1st, the earlier episodes were and what it was supposed to do, those are still not my favorite. I think my my favorite episode out of the entire show was probably episode 6, which was teen story. When we find out what's going on with him and his reveal, I'd have to think about it like.

1:13:31 Well, good feeling, good feeling that you will sit back and turn this back on and rewatch from episode 1 to the end. Probably. Probably a three. OK. Yeah, probably a three. OK so before I answer this question, I have not watched any of the Marvel series again but I've only watched them once so the likelihood of me watching this again is low like 0. Like even my favorite marvel shows I have not watched again.

1:14:17 So I would have to say I'm not going to watch again. I I haven't and I have no desire to watch it. Like I was thinking the other day oh I want to go back and watch Falcon The Winter Soldier at some point. It hasn't happened yet, but but as far as wanting to watch again, I I would not want to watch it again and as far as how I feel about this series, I'm I'm going to put it with echo and and state say that I'm undecided really, because I see I saw a lot of potential expectations were not really high, but I was kind of curious about it to see how it goes.

1:15:01 Watched it. It's like, was it terrible that it wasn't great either? The best thing that come out of the show was Jen like that. That is the best thing that come out of the show. And I would love to see her in other stuff. I would love to see her be a part of other things in the MCUI. Don't think it's going to happen because I think the MCU is too much of a mess right now for them to make anything coherent of coherent use of her character. If Midnight Suns ever comes to fruition that would be nice but you should shoot horn hurry in somehow and make it work.

1:15:44 But you know the series is OK. Like it's a bounce back from secret invasion. I'll I'll give it that. But. That's not really saying anything though. It's not. It Yeah, we'll we'll, we'll, we'll. We'll see. I'll go, I'll go. I'll go along with your about Echo. I can give you that that that is that I think. It's unfair to Echo, I really do. I think like Echo should never be write it because it's really unfinished show that was rushed. That's why I was I have to. Feel like that that show literally 'cause I feel like that wasn't good at all like. But I still I feel it's unfair to even say anything about the show because it didn't, they didn't give it the just that it needed to get.

1:16:34 So it's like that's off to the side. But everything else and I'm starting to think of now shows of will I watch again? And you're absolutely right, I don't watch any of the series again. They are series that I would watch again though. It's just if I had time or if I need something in the background, I will watch Falcon in The Winter Soldier and I will also watch Moon Knight. But then those are the only two. And yes, I thought what you guys about Agatha. But overall, like I wouldn't watch the episodes again, but seven and I will only watch 7. If it pertains to him being in another movie. I'm like, oh let me get my background again and let me watch 7.

1:17:16 See, I was I, I, I kind of put it where I would watch the. It's better than secret evasions though. Way better. I I would watch there. There's there's a there, there are two there. There are two YouTube 2 YouTube channels I watch. One is reactionary TV, the others J2O shout to both of them. They do. They do reactions where other where other other creators react to like shows, movies and stuff like that. And it's like, I watch those all the time and it's like, I'll go back and I'll, I'll watch like their reactions to the Falcon and Winter Soldier because it's cool seeing other nerds react to things like especially things that you've watched before. So like I've gone back and watched like the reactions to Agatha a lot. It's like, if this is if it's something that I like, I'll go back and watch reactions to it all the time. Because their reactions as opposed to the whole show, they actually cut down to the better parts of the show, like the action sequences or the the really funny parts or the like shocking parts.

1:18:20 It's like they go straight to those and they show show creators reactions to them. So as far as that goes, I'm, I'm still watching reactions to Agatha because I watch like episode 4 when they were in Alice's mom's house and they were doing that like, 'cause I'll go straight to the part where they're singing her version of the witches Rd. which I love that song. I, I love that version. So I mean, that's, that's how I would, that's how usually I rate things. Like if I would, I go watch a reaction and just like catch certain parts that I really liked. And there are tons of parts in there that would catch like that.

1:19:02 So, so one, one of the issues I have with this show is it seemed like it was a lot of window dressing, like there was a lot of surface level things that were really pretty. You know, the sets were great, the costumes were great, the sound was great, the music was great, the effects were OK. It was just a lot of that, a lot of fluff, a lot of pageantry and not a lot of substance to me. Like it became a scavenger hunt. Can we figure these things out and put the pieces together? It it just, that's what it felt like. It feel very airy. And I don't want to say incomplete because I don't feel it.

1:19:47 I don't think it felt incomplete. Like Echo fell short in a lot of ways. And you're right, they, they did Echo dirty. They really did. And that's and that's why I put put Agatha in the same category where Echo is like. It's very hard to kind of judge it now because the, the, the, the step is there. Like it's right there what something is feel. I feel like it's something missing but It's Special's first 4 episodes seem like a skeleton and I feel like I needed more from the show other than a lot of the the window dressing and prettiness.

1:20:28 We can't go back. So but that, but that's but that's all I wanted. That's all I wanted to say about it. OK, so even. Though I complained about the last episodes, doesn't take the fact that it was actually even Hanko going back. Well, how? To you know how to go going back and start to realize just like the the ties that it has from the beginning. I think it is a complete story. I personally didn't care how they may act, I'm. Not going to say, OK, I'm not going to say it was a complete story because I I do. Oh I'm sorry if I misheard you. I didn't mean to say not complete but that it was missing something. You said it was missing something, that's what I meant. I don't feel like it was missing anything, I just didn't like how they did the act of the character. I didn't say you said it was wasn't Mischanted. I don't see her.

1:21:12 Let's not argue. Let's let's not do this. Again, I feel like it wasn't missing anything. That's what I'm saying. We got to tell you how. I felt. Yeah, yeah. I I wasn't. Missing anything? Yes, it was it. Was I, I? I agree with Anthony. I do still think that there was some things missing. I think overall for me it didn't. Agatha was the main character but I feel like it really wasn't her show. I think a lot of it was building up who Teen was. Like aside from Agatha's back story, which we don't really get until the very last episode, it's more about identifying who team is, how he got to where he is, and him discovering the extent of his powers in creating the witch's role.

1:22:11 I feel like it was more a a show that was supposed to transition his character into something else and not necessarily Agatha's character. I mean, the last episode, we do kind of see more of that cohesion that I feel like is missing in the earlier episodes because you get her resolution with death. You get her, you know, dying her making the sacrifice, her becoming a ghost. And now she's about to embark on helping Billy find his brother again. This is more teen story then it was Agatha's story and you know, I I don't have a problem with it because like I said, I was actually more interested in teen's character from the beginning that I was in Agatha.

1:23:03 Like I wanted to know is this Billy Maximoff and if so, how did he get in his body and where is his brother? Those were questions that I had after One Division after Multiverse of Madness. You know, the whole the whole story arc with Wanda basically losing her mind trying to get her children back. That is something that I think resonated with all of us with Wanda Vision, with Multiverse and madness. And then this whole thing about is she dead? Is she not dead witch? Apparently, Kevin Feige has hinted that Scarlet Witch may not be done in the MCU. So all of that to say, I feel like it was more his story. I didn't have a problem with that. Agatha didn't really get interesting to me towards until towards the end.

1:23:54 And even with that, it's still kind of like hit or miss with me. I'm not going to say it was as bad as Secret Invasion, but it's also not one of my top shows like Anthony. I probably, I, I may go back and just rewatch, finish rewatching episodes four and five just to just to revisit those episodes. But then I probably will never need to watch this show again. Yeah. So, yeah. But I mean, I, I think at this point, we probably it, it's probably time for us to have another one of our shows where we talk about all of the Marvel products that's that's been released in this phase and kind of rank them 'cause I think it's been like maybe two or three years since we've done that. So I, I think, I think it's probably time for us to do that. But yeah, it's just.

1:24:54 Starting from when? Probably Phase 5, Yeah. But I mean, that's something like I said, that's something I literally just thought about now, especially because, you know, in trying to figure out where we want to place Agatha, Like Anthony has brought up Echo and I know we still haven't gotten around to talking about She Hulk and Miss Marvel. And I know at some point Mike still wants to do that. We may still need to do that. I will say Miss Marvel is one of those shows I wouldn't mind going back re watching She Hulk watch that It's kind of maybe I don't know I I still.

1:25:36 Watch you hope Anthony shut up. So yeah, so so, but yeah, Agatha is probably one of those. I would say it's probably mid to low tier for me. I'm not going to say it's all the way at the bottom with seeking Secret Invasion for me, but. I mean, we we all know what. Everything compared to everything else we've seen, it's probably somewhere close to that. Yeah. So but we, we, I mean, we can just, we can basically when, when we do this, we can basically skip the first first entry and just go to whatever is next to last because we all know what we're going to have at the bottom, so. Yeah, but I mean.

1:26:17 You'd never know. No, I think we're all in agreeance on that one. I don't know but. I think we're all in agreement for. That awesome now? You know what? See you are you, are you going to get electrocuted? Hey, calm. Down and on that false notes that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.fandomhybrid.com. We are on social media on all the social media at fandom hybrid. You can chat with us on our discord channel. You can watch our videos in our YouTube channel and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Also this weekend, if you are in Atlanta and looking for something nerdy to do, we will be appearing at Conjuration at the Sonesta Gwinnett Place in Duluth.

1:27:07 We will be presenting on panels. We will have a live podcast episode where we are discussing parenting in the Potter verse and we're talking about all kinds of other nerdy things. You can check our website for more details, but if you're there, come say hello and let us know what you think of the show. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.