Marvel's What If...? S3E2 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #331

0:25 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I'm here with Anthony and Mike and we are discussing season 3, episode 2 of Marvel's What If series. And this is the episode What If Agatha went to Hollywood. And as you can guess by my screen name was not really not really feeling Agatha in this in this episode, but we will get to that. But since Anthony was not on our discussion for the first episode, I want to kind of backtrack really quickly and get Anthony's thoughts about Episode 1.

1:12 What did you think about the third season premiere? OK so first this is not going to be long. I'm not going to belabor the point. I was somewhat disappointed in the 1st episode. I don't know it it was weird watching like a mash up of Voltron, Pacific Rim and Godzilla. And I was like, well, why do we have we're already being derivative. But then you cubed it like derivative to the third power and I didn't I didn't care for it. Not at all.

1:54 Not one bit, not one bit, not one bit. So you know, I was Needless to say, I was disappointed. I was hoping for a better kick off to the season, but as as it always has been, I guess with this show, not every episode is going to be great. There's going to be a hit and a miss and then there's a build up ultimately. So, you know, we'll we'll see where it goes. You know, I I didn't care for the end of it, didn't care for the beginning, didn't care for the middle. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.

2:36 I was, I was not happy. I was just whatever. It's so funny because your reaction is the complete opposite of Mike and I's reaction because we loved it because of all the 80s references. No reference is fine. 2 references OK to match the three things with The Avengers and he just it was too much. It was. Like a love letter to the 80s. No, no, it's called, oh, we're lazy. So hey, wouldn't it be cool if we take Voltron, Godzilla and Pacific Rim and make it like The Avengers versus the Hulk, and then the Hulk can find himself? It's like Kaiju.

3:26 No, no, too much. You know what I'm I'm going into this new year as a changed man. I'm going one. I'm going into the new year as a changed man where I'm going to try to hold my face every time Anthony says something that I really don't agree with and not smirk or do anything like really off because Anthony is one of my best friends. He is a very smart individual. I respect everything that he said that he has to say about multiple nerddoms and fandoms, including Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel, and anything that he has watched. I respect his opinion. So I'm just going to keep my face, and if I have to make a face, I'm just going to turn my camera off like so I can't believe, OK, I'm good. So that that's all I have to say about that. So we don't need to go into it.

4:23 I'm just, yeah, we can move. We can move forward. Alright, let's move forward. Let's let's, let's switch gears 'cause now I'm about to be the one. That's like what? Because this episode of What if, what if Agatha went to Hollywood? So I was trying to keep an open mind because it's Agatha. And I think if you listen to our episodes that we did where we discussed Agatha all along, you will know that she is not one of my favorite characters in the MCUI. Just, I don't know, something about the way she's portrayed is just very off for me. And when I was watching this episode, Mike messaged me and he was like, So what did you think about the episode? And I said, you know, I've come to the conclusion that I just don't think I care for Katherine Hahn as an actress and even less so as a voice actress because her her performance in this it just, I don't know, it's just like the voice in the IT it something about her voice just does not resonate with me. And it really kind of kept me from enjoying the episode. It's almost like, and this is not to say that she's a bad actress or something, there's just, you know, some people, just there's some people that just don't, I don't know her. Her voice is like chalk scratching down a chalkboard for me.

5:54 And it just kind of took away from my enjoyment for the for most of the episode. I think the best part of the episode for me was Kingo, but that's because I also loved him in the Eternals and I love the fact that they brought the Eternals into this. But again, kind of like what Mike and I discussed in the last episode. Why would you bring us the Eternals and put them so heavily into this into this storyline when you're not giving us any more Eternals material? It's just kind of like you're teasing us and it with no pay off. So I, I don't know, I, I, I don't know.

6:35 What do you guys think? Let's, I don't want to be, I don't want to be the, the, you know, downer Debbie. But let's go Anthony first 'cause I already know Mike loves the episode. So let's go to Anthony first. Anthony might split the middle. So I I let me start by saying the good things. I thought the animation in the episode was pretty good, except the dancing. It was a little weird, but I don't I don't know if that if that dance sequence was meant to look that way. I thought her dress, the glittering, the glittering dress was absolutely gorgeous. That was well animated.

7:18 It looked really good. It set her apart from everything else, which is kind of how her personality is now. My dislikes in general is just about this whole process. I like the Eternals. I actually kind of like the movie. Side note, I hadn't heard a rumor that we were going to see the Eternals again at some point. I don't know how true that's going to be, but the back to this episode, I don't know why they're trying to force, force Agatha on us. I I, I don't see the benefit of Agatha Harkness.

8:02 I I really don't. And I'm like you, Hanukkah, Why are you giving us the eternals here when you're probably not going to give us the eternals again in any form or fashion? And then you kind of throw Tony Stark in here in his weird role, and then Jarvis in the. What you mean Howard Stark, Harold, how we start. Yeah, how we're starting. And then you have them in these weird positions. I don't know. The whole episode was a little strange. And then Agatha is not a nice person, so the ending kind of doesn't really jibe with her.

8:46 I fully expect to her to be like, oh, that's a cool thought, but no, it destroys. That's what I would. Do too. Yeah. And I thought actually, I would have liked to show this episode better had she done that, if she had this like, yeah, that sounds really good. But no. And then she proceeded to make it more about her, you know, and do what most of them do. I thought that would have been perfect for this episode. But no, they they didn't go that way. So I don't know why they keep why they're trying to make Agatha Harkness something that we we want. I don't, I don't know if the general audience wants any. I think she has a, a, a she has a following. That's obvious.

9:28 I don't know if, if the following is large enough to warrant this. I don't know. I, it was, it was weird. I, I don't know. And you know, of course Kingo was great because I love him. He's funny. He sort of brought the show up a little bit, but not enough to overcome all the problems I had with it. That's it. I think I I agree with you on the ending of the episode. And it's so strange because I remember when we were talking about Agatha and I was trying to figure out what her character was or who she was, and I was the one who said that maybe she would probably, I felt like they would probably try to do a redemption for her or make her not so nasty.

10:13 And you guys were the ones who were like, no, she doesn't need to be nice. Like we don't always have to redeem our villain characters. Some characters are just villains just because they're villains. And that's what Agatha is. And that that thought stuck with me. So when the ending came and Kingo made this convoluted speech, I really was looking at it as like, OK, this is about to be the Comic Relief, 'cause she's about to look at him and be like, oh, you really think so? Yeah. No, Neil, I really was expecting that. So when it changed and they were at the premiere and she was all nice and I was just like, what? It just didn't seem to fit.

10:56 And I I realized what if it's supposed to be? What if these characters were different? But one of the things about the characters that we've seen and what if is that there's always 11 little characteristic of the original character or of the live action character that carries over into the animated. And I just, I don't know, this episode was kind of weird in that sense. The whole Howard Stark thing threw me off too, because you still have Dominic Cooper voicing him, but he sounds like a totally different character. He sounds like he sounds like Howard Stark on speed or something. It's like his voice was way too high.

11:38 He was too, I think. I think The thing is he was too joyful and too animated for me and I'm not used to seeing Howard Stark in that way. I'm used to Howard Stark being very business. When he makes his jokes or he makes his smart ass remarks, he still does it with a straight face. You don't really ever see Howard Stark like smile or anything like that in the live action. So this was a bit much for me, but. Before you go, Mike, just one thing Hanukkah touched on. We, I think we've talked about this before. There's always a persistent trait or characteristic or personality. They're always persistent regardless of the what if situation.

12:25 It's just they make different decisions or different circumstances happen, but for the most part they're still the same people and then they still do the same things. And here I don't know how, however, Stark is sort of a show man. He's wanted to control them, be behind. So I, I kind of understand a little bit where they were going with them. But some of the things he did seem to be out of character out of they seem to be out of character for him. And the things she was doing was sort of out of character for her, especially at the end. Everything else she was doing was in character. But then you get to the end and and she totally does a turn and it it didn't make any any sense, you know, as far as our character goes.

13:09 Yeah, OK, Mike, come on and throw A1A180 on this discussion. What did you think about the episode? OK, see. So here's the thing, I am a huge fan of Art Deco and mid century modern. Shout to Anthony for sending that meme this morning about how mid century modern is elves and art Deco is dwarfs. That was like, that's actually a really good explanation for it. But I'm a sucker for that, for that kind, that kind of like decoration. And it was all over this episode and I loved it. As far as Howard Stark acting, acting the way he was, I understood it because they're basically turning Howard Stark into Howard Hughes.

13:57 And then because Howard Howard Hughes was basically the same. He was basically Howard Stark in real life. Like he was a very, he was a very rich guy. He was tech savvy. He produced films and he did a whole lot of, he did a whole lot of really big things. And he he, he tried to have his hands and everything. So that's basically what they're doing here. And I think I actually really enjoyed it. He reminded me of the Howard Stark in the very first at very first what if episode, the 1:00 what if captain what if Captain Carter meant when they introduced Captain Carter and he was the one that he could. That's the that's the Howard Stark that he reminded me of in this.

14:38 I don't mind Agatha. I agree with you all's points about as far as the ending. I and like, I agree, but I see what they were doing because I think they're trying to show that Agatha, while she was very powerful, she, she always succumbs to the power of adoration and that and they, they tried to use the power of fame to get her to, to actually fall in line or to or to not change everything. Like that's what that's what Kingo was doing. He was like, you know, you like everybody loves you. You can't do this. And it's just appeal to her.

15:19 I don't necessarily like the ending either. I agree that Agatha that it probably could have been different. I did enjoy when she became a celestial. I loved. I loved that animation, I thought. That was beautiful. That was very beautiful. They did an outstanding job on that. I love the fight with Irish M where she where she brought back the finale in Wanda World one in Wanda Vision where Wanda Wanda set up the rooms when she was fighting Agatha in the air in the finale and took her powers away. Because that's basically the same thing that she did with erosion by shooting out out from him and making a pentagram and pinning him on it and stealing his powers. That's basically it's kind of a callback. It's a callback to that, and I appreciated them doing that.

16:02 I really like this episode. I because I guess I like this, this period of time. I love. I like the fast talking. This kind of reminds me of it's a movie called Down with Love. It's kind of a it's kind of a 60s and 70s. We had you and Ellen McGregor and someone else and and Renee Zellweger, I think. But it was a film that was set up like the Cary Grant and the Audrey Hepburn movies where they have a whole lot going on and they're really peppy and stuff like that. And I love those movies. So this would it gave me all that and I loved it. I had and I don't know if I'm nitpicking, but during the dance sequence, which I which I actually really liked, I was looking at Agathist dancers and I was like, why are they different colors?

16:53 Like there's some, there's some like if you look at it, it's like they, they look all of them have blonde hair. All of them like have like gold, gold outfits on, but it's like some of them it looked looked like they tried to make some of them black and some of them white and some of them Mexican and it's like it threw me off and I was like it just looked really weird but I. I didn't. It didn't register on on. My second, my second on my second time through, I caught it and I was in it and it just kind of kind of messed me up. But I mean, other than that, I, I reasonably enjoyed this episode and it yeah. So I'm I'm sure that they're doing this like why they're producing to keep giving us the Eternals is because of the Falcon movie coming up where they're going to be mining, mining adamantium out of the out of the hand that's sticking up out of the seat that they brought up in the Eternals movie. TMA, Yeah.

17:49 Yeah, TMA that that that I'm sure that's why, you know, she killed TMA then he she drained team as power here. So they're trying to remind us like see that guy who's going to be Rick? He's coming up soon in two months. So just, you know, they're trying to keep that in mind. Nothing. I'm wondering if that's going to be a running theme that they're going to do a lot of coming soon, like drops and hints in a lot of these, where they're going to have us keep in mind what's going to happen in the future. But actually, rumor has it that it wasn't working that well. So they're going to stop doing that. They're going to stop making it where you have to be either knowledgeable or watch the Disney push shows that they're they're going to get away from that because it's not having the desire effect. So.

18:40 Yeah, I can. I can see that, especially because I, and I think we, we've said this, we've had this discussion on whether or not all the way back to one division about whether or not you should have to watch the Disney Plus shows in order to understand what's going on in the movies and vice versa. And I, I think for a while we thought, OK, maybe no. But then they started kind of going that way to where they were referencing things. And it's like if people like with with this episode and with the episode before, because I believe they mentioned like they had Moon Night in the first episode, they had Shang Shi, which Shang Shi is a movie. Most people will have seen that, but not a lot of people may have seen Moon Night, even though it was one of the better shows. But it's kind of like, why would you bring these characters in if you're not going to continue them? And we don't right now, Moon Night is still up in the air 'cause we don't even know if we're getting a second season, even though the rumors are they're still working on it. But I mean, Moon Night Season 1 was what, 3, almost four years ago?

19:44 So it's kind of like I don't have a problem with them putting the Celestials in the show again. I loved the Eternals and I would really like to see a continuation of those stories and those characters. But if you're doing it here, there are people who probably didn't watch the Eternals. That's one of the reasons why I didn't do so well. They're going to wonder like, OK, So what is this you guys are talking about? Why are these characters here? Who are these characters? They may not be as familiar with them. Like they just threw out the names when she talked about taking their powers. Yeah, Macari and Gilgamesh and everybody else. Who is everybody else? So it's. Kind of like, yeah, people who are watching and they're like who the fuck is he?

20:27 Who? First of all, who? Who is Kengo? Like what? What is it people who haven't seen the internals would have? No idea. No, there or people who didn't watch Agatha, they they would just they would look at this like what? So it's been having a weird effect, like they thought the synergy would increase viewership, but it's actually turning people away. It's having. I think it's having the opposite effect. Yeah, and part of the problem is that one, in order to watch the shows, you have to have a subscription to Disney Plus. And a lot of people are really starting to cut down on their streaming services, especially when they keep upping the cost every month, just like Disney Plus is about to go up. So it's kind of like I keep Disney Plus because we tend to discuss a lot of Marvel, we discuss, you know, these types of shows.

21:20 So I keep it for that. But other than that, it's like when you keep increasing the prices and people are not as invested in those products, then yeah, it's gonna have a not negative effect because they're not gonna bother watching the shows. They're like, OK, I got the movies, that's all I need. And I think you said something about that, Anthony, that like there are people who only wanna watch the movies, they don't care about the shows. But then it's kind of like you think about what's coming up, Falcon in the Captain America, Brave New World. Anybody who didn't watch Falcon in The Winter Soldier, they're gonna be completely lost by a. Lot of that stuff and, and, and they see Captain America, then they watch the trailer and realize, oh, Steve Rogers is not in it.

22:04 Then they're not going to go watch. They're not interested. It's like them, it's not Captain America. He's not Captain America because they didn't watch Falcon and Winter Soldier. So they don't. They don't know. They could have got that from end game. Right. Go back to the conversation we had before. You're supposed to make the leap. When Cap gives him the shield and says it's you now. Then the next time you see Sam, he's Captain America. For some people, that's going to make sense for them, but it's been so much time since we've seen that. Yeah, and like so much. Time. You have Ramirez, the new, the new Falcon. I mean, let's, let's just say like this, we're, if we're just going by the trailer for the new Captain America movie, nobody's nobody who didn't watch Falcon in The Winter Soldier. They're not gonna know who Ramirez is. They're not gonna know who Isaiah Bradley is. They're not gonna understand.

23:00 Well, I guess they can read, but they're not gonna understand. Like, how is this Thunderbolt Ross? Like when did Harrison Ford get into that position 'cause there are some people who really don't pay attention to. I know a lot of people who know the the characters, but if when it comes to the actors and what they do outside of what this movie is, they don't know. So a lot of people don't know William Hurt is dead and that he was, you know, so it's just kind of like the continuity. I think. I just don't know if it's going to be there enough for people to to care, especially people who aren't the diehards like us or the people who may not have watched the Disney Plus series, but they are the comic book people.

23:43 So they know what the story is supposed to be, but I don't. Think that I don't think that people who aren't watching the show haven't watched the shows before are going to start now. It's like I just think they're right. I've I've I've I've given up, I've given up hope. I'm I'm keep thinking that people might just check out one or two, but people just don't care. Even the people that watch it are still going to be the main ones that are going to complain about how that why, like why am I watching this? It's like the people have been complaining like they'll watch they'll watch the series, then they'll complain like they're already complaining about ironheart. Ironheart hasn't even started yet. They're like, how? Why is she Tony Stark? Where's Tony Stark? I'm like, you haven't even watched the fucking show.

24:24 Like at least watch the show then you can complain about it then you know, you might have a valid point, but if you haven't watched the shit then shut, then shut the fuck up till you see it. Like that should be. It pisses me. It just pisses me off because I'd rather people just give it a shot instead of just listening to what other people say and going off that and not watching it. It's just like with this, it's like with Eternals. It's like, I know a lot of people. I it's it's still mid mid to mid high from mid mid for me, like I there were there were some good moments, some bad moments in the movie, but I know some people who absolutely love the eternals and probably really and but and love this and love and love and love the little throwbacks because they get a little bit. It's just like us when last episode with moonlight, we're so glad to see them because we don't we didn't get anything. We haven't gotten anything from them in like a year and a half, two years and you've and you're they're throwing us a bomb. Like, OK, cool, thank you.

25:17 It's just like that's what this is for people who love the Eternals. And I just, I really just would wish that people would give something a chance before they before they start shitting on it, at least at least watch it. Watch a couple episodes before you do something. Yeah, but you, you're always going to have a certain segment that's going to hate for reasons other than the actual content. All they see is a black girl who was replacing Tony Stark, and they have a problem. So that's true. You you almost have to kind of disregard them, but you're you're right. They they make enough noise. It's a small group of people making enough noise for other people to take notice and be like, Oh well, I I don't have to watch it. Yes, we.

26:03 Will get the gets the griefs. Yeah, and and like this, but along with that comes this whole idea that where where they're trying to it's, it's like the referencing. OK, so as is, as it's pretty clear why Division really burned me on a lot of this stuff, right. I don't mind references and callbacks, but when your whole thing deals with references and callbacks, if that's what you're building the show on, if that's what you're building the episode on, then you're building on the House of cards because you have people who don't get the references and they don't get the car backs and it's not enjoyable for them.

26:52 So people like, like myself and Mike and you and Lori, we see these little things like, oh, that's cool. Oh, that's cool. Then the majority of people, let's just be honest. The majority of people, yeah, they do not watch comic books, they do not watch animated stuff. They haven't seen anything about Marvel since, you know, they were teenagers 30-40 years ago. So they don't have a point of reference for this stuff. And to them, it's either got for them, it's got to be good and it's got to be engaging. If your engagement is based on references and callbacks, you're not going to get the majority of people. I'm not seeing the majority of people are stupid. I'm just saying the majority of people don't have a library of knowledge.

27:40 They don't have stuff they can go back to and refer to. But Oh yeah, I get it. The majority of people just don't. And I think. Them don't care as like we are all invested in these characters and invested in these properties and there are some people who are just and there's nothing wrong with this. There are people who are just casual fans, just. Watch it and enjoy it. So that's that first level. By the time you get to us, the population is. Small, like level 678, Yeah. Right. The population is small, so if you make an episode like this episode, but there's a lot of references to things.

28:22 When there are a lot of references, it's very difficult for the cat we call casuals. It's very difficult for casual to want to see here and enjoy the show. So they either have to be a huge fan of Katherine Hahn or a huge fan of Agatha Hartness or a huge fan of Howard Stark or a huge fan of Eternals. If they're not any three of those things. This episode was missed. Yeah, Yeah. Especially as a what if. Because if you go back and and and even the first season, what if it's kind of cool with it's like, what if this happened in this one event changes things. Well, this one is What If an Agatha Hartness with the Hollywood. Yeah, but also too with the 1st 2, with the first two seasons of what if and, and it's kind of like, I think this is one of the problems also with the current phases of the MCU, with the earlier ones, you're dealing with characters that have already been established, characters that are well known.

29:23 Like even the casual fans can reference and can tell you about Tony, Tony Stark, Iron Man, Captain America. They can tell you a little bit about Captain Carter, just a little bit, but enough to know that, OK, this kind of makes sense. But now with this third season and then also with the newer phases of the MCU, you know, you're trying to introduce new characters, you're trying to tell a different story, which I have no problem with that. But the problem is with the earlier phases, with the Infinity Saga, you didn't have TV shows that you had to pay attention to in order to keep track of the storyline. And I think that's, you know, like you said, that's part of the problem with it. Now, like for us, those of us who love this, this world, when they announced that they were doing this, we were all excited. We were like, yes, give me more, give me more. And now we see that that may not necessarily be a good thing, especially if the shows don't perform as well as they want and then they end or even the movies and they end up canceling what they were working towards.

30:30 Like, you know, we, Mike and I mentioned this in the last episode, the whole thing with Eternals. Not only does that mean the Eternals too is not happening, we may not get the Black Knight. We see Blade has been in trouble from jump almost. So we don't even like they can tell us that we're still getting Blade, but right now we don't even know. And it's kind of like you, you, you sit there and you give us these little bits and you tease us. And then when it doesn't happen the way you want it to happen, you kind of take it. And then we're kind of stuck in this limbo again. I have a problem with them bringing the Eternals in, but some of this would not make sense to anyone who did not watch the Eternals or who did not watch Agatha or even I've watched both and I still have questions like getting back to the episode. OK, Is Agatha Harkness really powerful enough to overtake Celestials or Eternals and and take their powers? Like, to me, that doesn't make sense. But I don't know because, again, I'm not as familiar with her character and what she's capable of doing. But when when she pulled out Fina's shield and Kingo said that's Fina's power and she was like, yeah, and Macari's and Gilgamesh.

31:52 So you mean to tell me you have all of these powers for these Eternals? How? And I don't ever remember them. OK, I did watch Agatha and I watched one division. I never got the impression that Agatha was rogue that that I I feel like she was just stealing their power, not actually stealing the actual thing that the person does. I got that impression. I could be wrong. But they never gave us that indication. So I want to with them change a little bit. But my issue is with the story, like you have the movies that more a lot of people have seen, even the casuals. So take some of those things and and and make the what ifs like what if Agatha hardness became the Scarlet Witch? Oh, so you could have had a really cool episode. You know, you because then you, you first you take you show people who Agatha is and because they all know who the Scarlet Witch is and you get started off with her stealing Scarlett's, you know, stealing Wander's power, you know, and then, oh, well, damn, then they get the one who Agathes. They might actually go back and watch the Agatha show, right. So you have to I I don't know, I don't know if they have AI writing these stories, because I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you. First of all, don't knock it

33:24 because I took the prologue of my book and I put it in ChatGPT and they gave me some good ass suggestions to make changes. And then I asked it, could you rewrite the prologue for me with those changes? It did. And do you know it was better than what I wrote with just a few. And it wasn't like they, it wasn't like it made a bunch of changes. He said if you just do these two or three things, it would be more engaging to the reader. He did those two or three things without changing my story at all. And it was really, really good. And I was kind of jealous, you know, and, and so it wouldn't surprise me if they have used a little bit of ChatGPT to figure some of this stuff out.

34:10 But like, I could throw that in to ChatGPT. What if Agatha Hardness became the Scarlet Witch? And it would give me a good ass story. I'm almost certain of it. And so, but that's the thing I'm saying, like, if you're going to do these with this, do it based on things that we sort of have most people have a reference to that way we all can enjoy it. I didn't enjoy it because it was, it was just a little I, I won't say I didn't enjoy it because I did think some parts of it was cool. It's not that I didn't like the episode. I just thought it could have been better. And it was the sort of like blah for me. Like it was kind of empty because at the end, like Hanukkah said, Agatha didn't do Agatha, so she didn't.

34:54 And some was like, Oh well, you just kind of discounted the character completely. And then you bring in, you know, at the very, very end, you bring in some celestials who may be coming to get revenge because she killed Arashim. And it's kind of like, OK, are we even going to see the sequel to this? You know, like, is this something that we're going to see in one of the later episodes? How is this all connected? And again, if you're not a fan of the Eternals, why would you care about this episode? So. I think that as far as as far as like Agatha been able to take the powers, I wondered about that myself.

35:34 I just think that they made a linear assumption that, you know, that people would if they know. Again, they're making assumption that people know who Agatha is to say, okay, Agatha can take powers from, which is maybe she that's her thing is power absorption. So they just went linearly to that point and didn't really explain it. Not the best explanation, but it just seems like they just drew a line from there to there and probably drew a line over a lot of exposition that could have helped or over an explanation that probably made more sense, but that's not probably the line that they drew. Also, I just think that James Gunn spoiled Marvel because James Gunn took the galleries of the Galaxy, a comic that nobody knew anything about, and made it one of the most popular movie trio in in the MCU and he did that with something that nobody knew about. That's why they were so gay.

36:26 Everybody leeway with characters like Agatha, characters like the Eternals and every other thing that hasn't that doesn't really have a big following and they get, you know, they give them enough rope to hang themselves and here we are. I think that most people probably don't care. They like, oh fuck, 'cause we want to see, we want to see Cap. We want to see, OK, not that cap. We want to see the other Cap or we want to see Iron Man or we want to see, you know, a character that we know something about. But you know, it's just like trying to think we're all parents when we try, when we try to feed kids something new that's going to be good for them, they'll spit it back at us or they'll turn their head and pout. But then sooner or later, like every now and then, you'll get a, you'll hit on something where they'll be like, oh, now that's all they want to eat.

37:12 But OK, I digress. But my, my point is like people like that, that's how fans are. It's like fans will will like discount something like and not like it just for whatever reason, or then they'll latch on to something. Then I'm not even kind of giving them a few excuse, but I'm just saying that it's difficult to keep up with it sometimes, but it no, it's really actually it's really not. If someone doesn't like it, I mean, they've been doing it like cancelling things that don't work. So, but I just think they need to be more careful with who's running these things, who's running whatever projects they're doing, especially if they're new ones, if there's something. That they don't have James Gunn anymore. You know, that was kind of AI.

38:00 Don't, I don't want to say like a farce or anything, but it's like he was very, he was very singular in his focus with bringing Guardians of the Galaxy was like, OK, you know what? I'm going to do this. I'm going to take these obscure comic book characters that nobody really knows, nobody pays attention to, and I'm going to make them great. And it's like people, when, when I remember when Guardians of the Galaxy was announced that I remember people being like, what? Why? And like you said, it became one of the best trilogies out there. Even the Christmas special was great. So it's kind of like, unless you have someone who can, who you know, can do that, I don't know. It's just I, I get what they're trying to do. It's very ambitious.

38:53 We've always said this with, with Marvel, they're, they're very ambitious. They're aiming high. But it's kind of like I again, I think they kind of need to take a step back and look at what they're doing and what path they're following and, and see what makes sense. Because again, why bring the Eternals in now, especially if you're not going to continue this story? Why tease Moonlight, which again, I'm not complaining about because I want that second season, but it it's just kind of, I guess we have to wait and see what the other episodes are going to be like to see how they are connecting and maybe it'll make more sense then. But like right now, this early on in the third season, I'm just kind of like, what is it?

39:41 You know, and then you're bringing questionable things about the characters that we already know, like Kingo in this was Kingo the entire episode through. He never changed. He wasn't different. That part I like, but again, if people aren't familiar with who the hell Kingo is, they're going to be like who the fuck is this and why is he dancing on my screen? As far as Agatha goes, again, there's nothing that I've seen about her character that makes me think she is strong enough to overpower not just one Eternal. But what, there were seven of them all together, and if Kingo is the only one left and Arisha made him the Prime Eternal, that means she overpowered six of them. And given who you're talking about, Cersei, you're talking us about Sprite, Icarus, Fina, Gilgamesh, Maccari. I just, I just don't see that happening. Yeah, I I totally agree with you. I just it, it's, it's a hard no, it's a difficult concept to wrap your head around.

40:52 I, I, I don't know, like you said, we'll just have to see where this is going because, you know, we have, we have had an episode in season 1 and episode in season 2 that didn't go with the overall story. So it's possible that this may not go with overall story. We'll, we'll just have to wait and see. You know, I, I don't mind. I don't mind it being like a overall story. I really don't what appeal to me about what if is the what if, you know, like what if a certain event changed something or a certain choice changed the direction of a character's life or how a story goes. That is the appeal of what if.

41:40 The appeal of what if isn't to me really the the overall plot arc that they're trying to do. I I don't care about that as much as I care about these these actual what ifs. And as a standalone this episode, what if Agatha went, why would she go to Hollywood? You know, the Agatha in in Agatha all along. Was he looking for adoration? She was just killing witches for power like there was. There was no adoration in that. She wasn't trying to become notable, she wasn't trying to take over the world.

42:21 She just wanted power. I mean, she did, She did. She didn't note that she was that the Wicked Witch of the West Witch, Wicked Witch of the West was based on her. So she did know a little bit of it. Yeah, but still for no, she still. Didn't want adoration, she just wanted power. Right, right. And I, and I get I guess the way that they kind of describe it in the beginning is she she heard about the celestial that was in the middle of the earth TMN and she wanted TMN's prop child. OK, But the thing about she went to where, you know, she went to Hollywood because that's where dreams come true and that's where power is and blop, like I was just like. No, I think she just went there to get TMN's power. She got from anywhere.

43:13 Maybe. Maybe in Hollywood that's the spot where she could be close enough to get it, I don't know. They made it. They made it seem like her powers are being boosted by the Adoration. Yeah, it says because I'm, I'm looking at it. They're looking looking to take the cosmic powers for herself. Talking about TMX powers, it says. Looking to take his cosmic power for itself, she set out to design A spell to siphon its power. But pulling off a ritual of that scale will require an equally big production. So she turned to a blossoming industry that had built its reputation financing the big dreams of even bigger egos. Yeah, but ultimately?

43:58 Hollywood, but. The thing, but then the way they made the the way they wrote it, she only just needed Kingo's power in order to complete the ritual. Right. No matter what she did, she was never going to be able to do it without his power. So to me, that makes me think that she didn't need to be in Hollywood to do that. Well, I guess in a in a sense, because the way that they lured Kingo there, even though yes, Kingo was aware of who she was, the whole thing, I think the tie in with Hollywood is because Kingo is the big movie star and that was the draw for him. Even in the Eternals movies, Kingo was a movie star. That was his thing. Like he was willing to let his friends do whatever as long as he was able to keep his acting going, his adoration from his fans, like that's what feeds him.

44:51 So I guess in a way I can see Agatha using that to lure him in. But it just, I, I don't know, I guess it would have made sense if if the title was what if Agatha became a celestial? Just something to that effect. But like, what if Agatha went to Hollywood? I was looking at that title. Like, do I even care really? So, yeah, I, I don't know, I don't know. I just, I, I really wanted to like this episode a lot more than I did. And it's just because of those little things on top of the fact that I just, I can't, I just, I don't know, something about Agatha or the something about that character I just can't seem to vibe with.

45:40 She literally could have just gone to Bollywood and stole his power. Yeah. And then did her spell like. Or she could have just let it be known that she had captured the other Eternals. And he would have come, yeah, he would have come to try to free them. Here's the other thing that doesn't really make sense about all of this. You you overpower 6 Eternals and it's not until the last one the Arisham decides to come in and be like, hold up, what you doing? That doesn't seem again, plausible to me, not given what I know about Arisham from the movie. You know, Arisham is based.

46:33 Oh, OK, so you're doing this. OK. You're about to you're about to mess up with the emergence. Let me kind of step in or let me do like, I feel like if anything, he would have sent Kingo after Agatha, especially if he realized that the other celestials weren't destroyed, but they were just being held captive. So I don't know the story, just kind of it. It's weird to me. And I know again, this is what if this is a variation, this is people acting different. But there are always, like I said, core characteristics about these characters. That is true in every reiteration of them, regardless of where they are in the multiverse, 'cause this let's let's be honest, what if it's just another it, it's another multiverse within the MCU, it's another timeline. So I, I don't know, I just, I don't know. I just it, it just, it was weird. And like you said, there were, there were some good things about it.

47:39 The animation, some of the animation was really good. The animation of Agatha becoming the celestial, that was great. I did enjoy the fight with her and Arisham because Arisham is a right prick. So to see her punch him in the face and then take his powers, OK, that's cool. But again, is she really powerful enough to have done all of that to get to that point where she can take a celestial power? I just, I, I don't know if I, I don't know if I think that's true of her character. I think I mean the way they set it up it's like OK she took the powers from all the eternals to get the first celestial who was bound still and had and hadn't come free.

48:23 So I mean she already had the power of 1 celestial and five eternals. But but the question is, how did she get again, how did she get the Eternals? Because I just don't see that happening. She probably. First of all, I don't see her catching Macari for anything. Yeah, Macari would have been a difficult only if she caught if she got Eucharist first, which seems a little weird. It's. Easier to get easier than Macari. Yeah, yeah. And Fina, Fina she catch. She catch Steven slipping because she has she's mentally deteriorating and if she if something happens she could literally catch her. She she probably caught me off guard and once she caught Fina Icarus, she could have got Gilgamesh. Yeah.

49:11 And then after Gilgamesh, with Gilgamesh and Phoenix power, Icarus would have been a little easier. But but. See the thing? It will be difficult. Macari would be difficult, but if she captured Druid I could see Macari coming to try to save him. But again Druick is one of like Druick was the one where all of the other Eternals were doing shit. Druick was over here on the side like you know what y'all can do your shit I'm gonna be over here. He to me seemed like one of the more intelligent ones so I don't see him falling for anything that Agatha could have or would have done to steal his powers.

49:51 So again, I'm just, I don't know if I feel like Agatha is powerful enough and even smart enough to outmaneuver an eternal, much less what, 6 of them? I think, I think she, I mean, it's just a little, like I said, it's a, it's a linear assumption. It's just like if she got it, if she got powerful enough from eating and eating enough witches, then I mean, it could happen. It is plausible. It's not like she's going in there without any powers. She's going in there. They're talking about beings who have the capabilities to destroy worlds, to destroy we're.

50:32 Also, talking about the Mystic arts, we're also talking about the Mystic arts. Though the Mystic arts have a lot Mystic arts are broad. There's something she could find in the Mystic arts to to either bind someone or take their powers. There's something in there, you know it. And to be honest, we don't know who she has taken. She may have gone after Doctor Strange. Wait, Oh no, we're we're too far back in time. She could have gone after whoever the Sorcerer's Supreme was at the time, which would have been the Ancient One and the Dark if she had the. Dark, cold, then then there's absolutely possible that she could have. Taken. They gave them an indication that she had a dark cold. I know, but I'm saying I'm just, I'm just saying there, there are, there are. Ways that this that this is plausible? It's plausible.

51:18 It's just you have to it's you have to make an assumption. You have to make a pretty broad assumption to get her to this point. Where where where we have that she would be able to take out the Eternals. OK, yeah, one by one. We know that at least a couple of them, they were not like Gilgamesh was with Fina that that she would have to fight both of them. That's if all of that happens in this timeline. But again, that, yeah, that that would be like, we could throw so many stones because literally So what if episode. So we would, like you said, Anthony, we would have to make a lot of broad assumptions. We'd have to assume that Fina was incapacitated mentally because of what she was going through. We have to assume that Gilgamesh was so focused on her that he wasn't paying attention to anything else. Icarus could have been off world like he has been, and that was probably why.

52:19 So yeah, I just OK, I, I'll, I'll try not to be biased, but I'm like, I don't buy it, but. It is he just goes to show that I know that writing television episodes is not easy, but I think the writers of of this episode or or this season, I I think they had an end game. I think they had a goal for the end. And this is one of the ways they need to get to that end. They need it for Agatha, for some reason, to become a celestial. OK. And this is what we got.

53:01 This is what we got. Yeah. And and even though we might think, you know, if she was a Scarlet Witch, it might be more believable. Yeah. But Wanda wouldn't be born at this time yet, so yeah, yeah. OK. They wanted to use Howard Stark OK it. Was so weird and Jarvis was just port Jarvis. Port Jarvis. Wasn't Paul Bittany? I'm like, you know Paul Bittany. No it. Was James? No, it was James Darcy. He was the guy that was in nature. Carter. I know what was I saying? Port Jarvis, because he was just Howard Stark was just so off the chain. Yeah, we took all the safety precautions out. The pyrotechnics.

53:50 What? Which house is it? The one that makes you question what did he say? The one that makes you question the the something about capitalism. I was like. Yeah, the house at the top of the hill, The Hollywood sign. Yeah, You question. Yeah. Weird. Anyway. OK, so I think so I, I think we've come to a consensus like Anthony and I were kind of like in May on the episode Mike love the episode, which I think is that puts it's kind of like in the middle for the, for the two episodes. Because again, I really did like the first episode.

54:31 Like I know you haven't had a chance to hear it, Anthony, because I haven't published the episode yet, but Mike and I were giddy. We were like, oh, 80s, you know, 80s callbacks love letter to the 80s. And we were it, it was, it was basically the nostalgia and I loved it because I was like, OK, this is fun. This means that they're going to do fun stuff. And then we get this episode and I'm just kind of like, OK, so now we just we have nowhere to go but up, right? So hopefully the third. Episode Not to bring up the first episode again, but that first episode is a worst version of this episode for me. Because if you, I guess, if you hadn't seen Pacific Rim, if you didn't really care for Godzilla and you didn't really watch Voltron.

55:23 Or Gobots or or. Whatever you're you're OK, I guess. It's cool. Yeah, yeah, basically, if you're not into what Kaiju culture at all. Yeah, or mix. You're just, you're just out of luck. Yeah, basically. But I I still love that episode. And I mean. Of course you do. I'm watching it and I'm like, this is right here at Mike's salary. Thank you exactly. Like. We watched the episode like 3 or 4 times. Yeah. Or certain other ones. But yes, I. Who doesn't like Kaiju? He doesn't like mix, right?

56:06 It was just a lot of too much like Voltron. Yeah. Oh, weird story, that weird story. Side note, before we go, so I was showing Bailey pictures of myself when I was younger. There's a picture of me. I think I was maybe 11 or 12 with the Voltron. She's she looks like she's like, wait a second, that's Voltron. I was like, yeah, she's like, wait, but but you had me watch it it. I said that was a reboot like two years ago. She was. Like something brown. Yeah. She's like, so you around when it first came out. Let's see. Yeah. She's like.

56:47 Because she had no clue. She thought it was new. Let's say Jack. Or didn't it? Yeah, it did. It was almost as bad as when my when my nephew was watching Gilligan's Island, I walked into the room and it's like, oh, you're watching. He's like, yeah, you never get off the island. He's like, wait, what? Yeah, He was like, when will this show out? You showed us how before I was born. So he's like, Oh my God, it's not you. He said no, these all, most of the cast is dead. God he, he. Can't. He couldn't tell by the production quality by the way it looks. I mean it looks very 60s. At the time he was like 10 or 11. Oh, OK, OK.

57:29 And so, you know, he, he thought he was watching it in the first round, just like Bailey thought. Spoiled it for him. I didn't realize that he didn't know he was watching TV Land. Anyone who remembers TV and even though it was nothing but repeats of stuff so and once I explained it to him, he was like everything he was watching on TV Land had already happened. For the most part anyway. Anyway, so yeah, I feel old after Voltron. She she thought she didn't know that there was a Voltron before that. And it blew her mind when I found out yeah, that show was like the 3rd or 4th iteration of Voltron.

58:10 This this happened to several different animation styles anyway, So yeah, too, too much reference. And I think this is a problem that we're going to have with if they're they're going to go away from actual, they're not going to focus on the meat of the stories, but on and how how many references and callbacks can we put in the show? And and that that you know, nobody who doesn't do theories wants that nobody. You know what? Look at man, at any rate. You guys have anything final to say about this episode? I'm shout for Howard, knowing that, knowing about Kingo and Agatha all along and they were like, you knew he's like you're the smartest person in the world. Of course I knew like I'm I'm saving you. I got you so I can save money on effects. And I was like, that's a fucking. That sounds like a Howard Stark thing. Like a Howard Stark thing.

59:04 I was like, that's perfect. What else do I have? Shout out for the dancers. When when Kingo did his did his little gun shooting thing and he was and she was like, oh, so your special powers are gun fingers. It's like Pew, Pew, Pew. Then all the dancers are going. He's like no, no, no, stop, stop, stop. That was awesome. Yeah, this was so good. See, I start, I started to wait and watch it with Michelle because Michelle loves Art Deco stuff too. But she would have been like totally lost, just like we've been discussing for the last hour because she had, she won't remember Eternals and she hadn't seen Agatha yet. So OK, it's like, but I've still thoroughly enjoyed this thing.

59:50 I mean, other than the few little problems I had. I I just thought it was good. I think I just kind of, that's my, I think that's, that's what's wrong with me. It's like I turn off. I turn off my, the part of my brain that wants an explanation for everything and I just watch stuff and finds that and just just find stuff that like entertains me. I'm like, OK, cool. And I just sit there dueling and watch it and like, OK, that was good. Then I'll turn my then I'll turn the other part back on. I'll I'll start start thinking critically. Then I watch it again. OK. But yeah, I do. I thoroughly enjoy this. I thought was good. OK, like I'm in the middle. I, I would say the only thing I, I want to see more Kingo because I like Camille Nanjiani in that role. He's like so funny.

1:00:37 And I just again, I like the Eternals characters and I would love to see more of them, but I I would rather see them in live action than animation. I, I have the opposite problem that Mike has that is very hard for me to watch things without being critical. And, and what happens is if something starts off and it doesn't pull me in, I don't really enjoy it. Then I turn on the critical part and, and it starts going downhill from there. Why do I not like this? They have to ask myself why I'm not like this? What is wrong with this? And then that's when you start looking for, OK, I don't like it because of this. I don't like it because of that.

1:01:21 But if I like something, if it started and I like it, then I'm like Mike. I, I can't turn on the critical part because I like it and it makes sense to me. And it's not even about like trying to figure things out or or or explanations. It's for me, it's like expectation, like you go in with a certain expectation and and. Even when we try not to even. When you try not and you go into all these Marvel properties, all these MCU properties, I go in every time with a high expectation. And I don't know if that's the problem because it's been a while since the expectations were met.

1:02:04 Right. And you know, and we just keep, we just keep getting beat down by this. And no matter how beautiful something like this, no matter how pretty it is, it's still got to have some substance. You know, like it's like having the, it's like someone put a cake in front of you with this gorgeous icing and gorgeous decoration. And the icing tastes so great that you cut into it and there's nothing inside. Like what was the point of bringing me the cake? Right. Our union is icing, and too much icing makes you sick, and that's kind of what this show was. Wow. OK, well on that note, that'll be for our show. You can find us online at www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media on all the social media at Phantom Hybrid.

1:02:56 You can chat with us on our Discord channel, you can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next time.