Marvel's What If...? S3E6 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #336

0:25 What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I am here with Anthony and Mike and we are discussing Season 3, Episode 6 of Marvel's What If series and this is What If 1872 and focuses a lot on Shang Shi and Kate Bishop. And I'm just going to venture against Anthony that because you have it as your background that you actually like this episode. I did. I really did. I'm telling you, after deciding that this is not the what if that I expected it, it has made it a little bit more enjoyable.

1:09 And which is funny because this seems like an episode to the throwback of what if what I was looking for just anthology stuff. So they made it even more enjoyable. It was just ah, this is nice. This is good. This is. All you need was a change of perspective. That's all you needed. Yeah, it's amazing what a slight change in your perspective can do OK. All right, so I will say this to start this episode off, it will never, ever, ever get old seeing John Walker get punched in the face. Bro when they.

1:53 Start the episode off and he's there. First of all, that that first scene, I was looking at it like, so are we about to get Kill Bill Part 1? Because it it literally looks like the church where they they gunned down the bride and they had that whole thing. So I was like oh OK, so is this telling me what I should expect? See for me it look like the church from the recent version of the Magnificent 7. Yeah, or the one that that Western movie with Jonathan Majors. Yeah, that's what it kind of reminded me of.

2:34 I was just like, OK, I mean, I was into it A. Good one. I mean, what? What Western? Yeah, what Western doesn't have an old Lapidated Church as the last? As the last stand. Right. But yeah, so. So when you come in and you have the little group and you hear John Walker and first of all, when I heard his voice, I just rolled my eyes like, OK, what are we about to do? It's. It's on. It's just an automatic response now. Every time, every time you hear his voice, you just like everyone's just like, here comes here comes fucking great value cap again, like. Right. Even and even even some of his lines in the beginning of this because he's, you know, he's leading this this group, they're trying to summon Shangshi.

3:20 And they're talking about like the whole premise of this episode is that there is a presence in the West called the hood. And apparently he has been taking Chinese immigrants who have come over to the New world to, you know, get a better life. They've been working on the railroads and they've been kidnapped and the hood has taken these Chinese immigrants. We don't know why, but basically he's looking for power and he's using, he's using Americans fear of these new immigrants to kind of build his power. And so nobody's really looking for these immigrants.

4:01 I know we're not even. So nobody's looking for these immigrants except for Sean Chi because his sister was one of the people who came over looking for a better life, got into a fight with this so-called Hood and disappeared. So he's out looking for her with his partner, Hawkeye, Kate Bishop. And when John Walker summons them there and they start fighting Sean, she starts asking him and he's like, where's the hood? Where's my sister? And John Walker said something about what do I care about a bunch of Chinese immigrants? I said Oh my God yes they really did keep him an asshole in this. Episode and then then he then Chung she gave him five to the back hand side. I was like, oh damn, you like watch. He was like, let me ask you again. I tell you, I tell you.

4:47 So thankfully that was the only time we saw him in this episode because I was like, if I have to listen to him for the entire episode, this is going to get real old real quick. Because that is just that's one of those characters that just I'm already trying to bite my tongue because we're going to have to deal with him in Thunderbolts. And I'm like, do we really have to see this character? It's OK, they dealt. With OK, and they moved. So so I'm going to I'm going to, even though I've changed my perspective, I'm going to bring up my bone to pick. And you know what my bone to pick is? I've said it almost every episode so far. Stop bringing in these quote, UN quote obscure characters that no one's going to know, right? Like if you're watching with if, which I know with if, it's not really for the mainstream people, but if the mainstream people are going to watch with if they don't know who John Walker is, and then thinking like, well, who the hell is John Walker?

5:48 And you would like to say, like Mike says, well, maybe it'll encourage them to go back and watch the Falcon and Inventor Soldier, but why? Because you wouldn't even know. That's where you would find John Walker, right? Right. You know what I mean? You wouldn't even know. Like, who's John Walker? Why should I care? So to them, it's just John Walker. It's just a character. It doesn't mean he doesn't. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Yeah, You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but you could say the same thing about Sunny Birch too. I mean it's like they brought back the villain from and and then the Wasp and it's like. We could, we could like we get this rather ball off. OK, so him I did not remember. I did not. I was like who?

6:28 Was this kid? So soon as I heard, soon as I heard Walter Goggins voice, I knew exactly that's who the fuck it was. I was like. The bottom of the fucking barrel. That's like that's the that's the OK sunny birds is more of the side of the barrel than the than the very bottom. It's be more of a side scrape character. I mean, it's like. The only redeeming quality is that he was actually in the movie. And you know, and maybe a Marvel person, a mainstream Marvel, because I don't consider us mainstream Marvel fans, but a mainstream Marvel fan might remember if they saw the movie, who he was. Because I had to think about, I'm like, how long I had to think about it. Wait, wait, who is he again? No, I caught.

7:09 No, I caught. I didn't. Remember. I caught. I caught him. It's his voice. How can you not? Walter. Walter. Yeah, I was sitting there looking like, who is this character? Like the voice sounds familiar and funnily enough, that actually drew the character to look like him. So that was that was a no brainer. But the name Sonny Birch. I was like, I feel like I should know this name. I feel like it. It's like tickling the back of my brain, but I couldn't figure it out. But I mean, it's like I understand what they're doing as far as pulling in the obscure characters because the these are not, I think for the quote, UN quote, like you said, mainstream people.

7:56 Anthony, I think if you, I kind of want to say maybe they're trying not to confuse the people who aren't the over and above fans like us, because it's like you look at some of the characterizations of who we see. And let's let's say in this episode specifically Shang XI, Jai Lin, Kate Bishop, if you've watched any of the properties with those characters, they pretty much are the same thing on screen in this. And then another one, maybe they're bringing in the obscure characters just because we need some random bad guys.

8:38 And it doesn't matter if you just put them in here for 3-4 minutes and then just kind of toss them to the side. You know, at least it's it's just a again, a tickle your brain thing because someone would have heard John Walker's name before. And even if they don't watch the shows, they probably would have looked him up by now because he's sitting in the back of Alexi's car in the trailer for the Thunderbolts. So it's like if you're hitting him in this in the major releases, maybe they'll be curious enough to say, OK, who is this guy? Let's. And why is he wearing, you know, Yeah. Let let let's step back for just. I know this is not about what if, but let's let's just step back for a second and look at the big picture, right? Who's going to go watch Thunderbolts? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

9:30 I'm talking about the mainstream Marvel audience. Who's going to go watch Thunderbolts? They. Most of them, probably. I'm worried. I'm worried. Really. I'm worried. I'm worried. No, I'm worried because you you look at the only I have to look again. But I think the only like recognizable real person on there is going to be lucky. Lucky and I think that'll be enough to bring you. Think that's going to be enough? Yes, boy, he better be all over the marketing. Like he better be all over. Bucky and Bucky and Yelena. Yelena has a way bigger no. No, no, no.

10:12 But here's the no, no, no, no. Yelena is only for people who watched Brett Widow. And how many was that? The Hawkeye. And how many was that? I'm no what, no, what I'm saying, What I'm saying is they're bringing her forward in enough time where people can actually, actually figure out who she is. Like for when When. In the first, in the in the trailers, in the trailers, in the first trailer, there's basically mostly all her like if. You have never watched any of the Marvel TV shows on Disney Plus. You watch that trailer, you might know ghosts, and you definitely know Becky. No, you're not going to know ghosts. I was, I was going to say I would, I would, I would think.

10:55 You. Know Elena before they would know ghosts because Elena for those people who are part of that original Avengers die hard fans, they they went to go see black people, they went they went. I'm I'm not, I'm that's a different category of people. I'm talking about the audience that makes the money. The audience that makes the movies the money. That makes the money are the people. Who knows the. Movies and she was in Black Widow. So the people, the mainstream NCU fans who only really watch The Avengers, Avengers in game, you know, Avengers Infinity Saga, Infinity War, those people did not watch. I'm telling you, they did not watch Black Widow. He didn't.

11:44 It's the the numbers were shown. The numbers show the numbers show the the movie. The movie was a bomb. It flopped the most. People did not go see that. Because. The people did not go see it but but this I think. It was. I don't think it was the mainstream people who didn't go see it. The people who were invested in The Avengers went to go see it. Because finally we're getting a Black Widow film, even though it was late and there was a whole bunch of mess behind it. But I think the other people who had, who had probably come in during the Infinity Saga saw what Phase I don't even Phase 4 started to be.

12:24 Because remember, Black Widow got released like towards the end of Phase four. They had already started doing the shows they had already done I, I think a couple of other movies. So the ones who aren't as invested, those are the ones who didn't go see Black Widow. Those of us who. Like they didn't. Yeah. Yeah, the the, the people like us and Mike, we went to go see Black Widow because we're kind of invested into the MCU. I'm talking about the majority of the people who pushed these movies up over a billion dollars. Those are the people that don't watch the Disney Plus shows. Those are the people who are like my mother-in-law who, yeah, she's watching Avengers and Avengers in game and she she watches those all the time.

13:16 But she's not going to watch Quantum Mania. She's not going to watch Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. She's definitely not watching any of the Disney Plus TV shows. That's your typical right and. That's why we were. That's why Mike. And I were saying what makes no sense. For them to recognize ghosts over Yelena. No, that was, I was just saying if anything, maybe they saw Ant Man, the Ant Man movies because those were over. Black Widow. Because, yeah, Because who? Yeah, You really think that people went to go? See, let me, let me go, let me go, let me go, let me go, Ant man. Two over Black Widow.

14:00 You can put up the numbers and see which movie most people saw because our I'm. Sure, now I'm curious about that. OK. But anyway, we continue our discussion about what if. But I just wanted to to, to say that I'm just worried about about Thunderbolts because I don't think anybody, I don't think the majority of people are gonna go see that movie. I think the trails did a good enough job to make people curious about it, I think. I think it'll do fine. I mean, to your to your point, it's like most people don't know wouldn't put Sam and Captain America together unless they stay to the end of end game. And they definitely don't know who Falcon is because Falcon was in Falcon in The Winter Soldier and they they wouldn't know who Isaiah Bradley is or they they they look at Harrison Ford and be like who the flies fucking watch fucking Indiana Jones in it.

14:47 So it's like you if you're afraid of four thunderbolts need to be afraid for the Captain America. Captain America. Movie. I'm not afraid. For either one of them, I think it'll be fine. I hate to say it, I do agree with Anthony. I'm afraid for Captain in America because of all the reasons that you just listed might. Now me, you know me. I love Sam Wilson. I love Captain America. I'm going to see the movie regardless. It can be a flop and I'm still going to go see the movie because I love those characters and I'm invested in that story. It's the same reason why I'm going to see Thunderbolts because I'm invested in Bucky Barnes now why they don't have Bucky and and Sam in the same movie that I'm hoping they will explain in one or two or both of those films.

15:31 But it's kind of like, I get what I get what you're saying and and Anthony is, I think Anthony is right. They're going to have to do some heavy, heavy promotion for Captain America, which I have seen they've started to do because of the fact that you don't have the people who put it together that, you know, when Steve Rogers gave Sam the shield, he really was casting along the mantle of Captain America. I've seen the comments on social media where people are like, that's not my Captain America, blah, blah, blah. I've seen all the bullshit. But you know so. The worldwide The worldwide gross for Ant Man and the Wasp was about $623 million.

16:19 This is decent and reasonable. The worldwide gross for Black Widow was 318 million. OK, we also have to put this one thing on it too. We have to remember Ant Man came out before COVID. Black Widow came out after COVID and it was a dual release. They came out in the theaters and in streaming, so that could have affected those numbers. It could, it could have, but even the streaming numbers were low for for it so. Yeah, because a lot of people don't have Disney Plus and refuse to get Disney Plus. But that's neither here nor there. We're we're we look, we've traped off into the weeds. Let's pull it back. Because the original intent of this or the original start of this was the whole John Walker thing. Having John Walker in this I think does kind of make sense because you just need someone who is enough of a villain, enough of a bad guy that he can come in, kind of get the action started, and just as quickly be pulled off. And like I said, watching him get punched and getting his ass whipped, that will never get old to me, whether it's an animated form or not.

17:29 So he served his purpose. Going on to the rest of the episode, I will say this, I did like the episode. However there are there's like 1 main thing that bothered me about the story. And you know, as I mentioned, Shang Shi, his sister came over to the United States, you know, trying to find a better life, tried to save her people from this hood person and then disappeared. And then, of course, Shawn, she and Kate Bishop now are looking for her and they're trying to track down who this hood person was because apparently he also killed Kate Bishop's family.

18:16 So the only thing about this is I feel like at that point the story started to feel a little predictable because it almost mirrors what happened in Shang Shi and the 10 rings in terms of Zhai Ling being the bad guy, being the person that Shang Shi was after without him knowing that that was who he was going after. I did kind of have a problem, have a problem with that because I was like predictable, much like they could have done something else different, which they kind of sort of did because the hood that she was wearing was kind of corrupting her, which I was like that kind of looks like Doctor Strange's cloak.

19:00 But I. Don't think it was. You think it was? No, it wasn't. Nope, I got that. I got that. OK, OK, go. Ahead, the red. The Red hood is actually is it. You're going to see it again in Iron Heart because that's what Anthony Ramos's character is going to be wearing. It's going to be the. Main feeling in in Iron Heart. So I looked at I was like, I thought so too, but then I was like, they're calling it the Red Hood and I'm like, there has to be a reason for that. So I'm like, oh, I looked it up and then ran. Sure enough, Anthony, Anthony Robinson's character Neinhardt is the Red Hood, which is probably what he he probably found the Red Hood, put it on and is actually going to it actually is something that possesses people. It's like it's kind of like the mask where if you put it on, it gives you the powers that it possesses and you don't have that much control over it. So that's what's good.

19:45 That's what that is just like the hood chooses this person and takes them over and make and they end up, you know, power tripping with it. So. They call it the redhead or they just call it the hood. It's just. The hood. They're called the hood, but it's like when you look at I looked it up and it said it's the Red hood. And say the character wears a red hood and the hood has two guns with it. So it's like you he basically. It it, it turns you into a bag, it turns you into a bag. It's evil and it possesses you. OK. Yeah, I want to, I want to jump on with what Hanukkah said. From the very beginning, I knew how this was going to play out. Like, it's obvious that his sister is going to be good.

20:27 Like, right. It's almost like you wish they hadn't even mentioned her. And and in the end, it shows her. And you're like, Oh my God, it's my sister. You know, I'm saying like don't set it up so to make it so easy for us. You know, I mean, but you but you had to know that's how it's going to happen. It's just like everybody knew that Bucky was The Winter Soldier. It's like as soon as they saw them, they're like, oh, come on. It's like they talk about Bucky a little bit. Then it's like if you if you don't know anything about let's like Martin mainstream Marvel people who maybe saw the first Captain America know that Bucky's gone, Then it's like they like talk about a little bit in between before we went on soldier and they're like, oh, where they're like.

21:07 I didn't know I like it. It completely escaped me. And when when that reveal was made in the movie theater, I was like, Oh my God, 'cause I had no clue. So that I did. But they were. But the marketing, the marketing wasn't trying to hide it from you. But I'm just saying for this, though, you don't really have a point of reference. So they could have gone the whole episode without him mentioning his sister, you know? Yeah, but. It's. Like they could have got a surprise again. But but from the way they did it, it's like his sister came over trying to figure out what's happening to all the Chinese people. She starts fighting somebody, then she disappears. And I'm just like, oh, OK, that's. Yeah, like. I said it was very that's that's all they say until she starts fighting her.

21:50 The next thing you know, he takes the cloak down and you see her and you're like, you're like, no, I'm not, no. You're just not. It's. Like I already, it's like just like you said, we already knew that that's what it was. Yeah, if she was dead, you know, but she. Fought the hood, she. If she said she had fought the hood and he killed her, that's different than saying she fought the hood and disappeared. It's like, I mean, I know I'm nitpicking here, but I'm just kind of like, oh, don't, don't just make it so obvious. Especially to those of us who have actually watched the movie because it literally follows Shang Shi and Jiaolin's story from the actual film, just with a a few tweaks here and there, you know? But I don't know if I agree with that. No, yeah, Uncle's a little right on this one. She's a little right.

22:49 I mean derivatives. It's it's adjusted a little bit for what if, but it's literally the same story. Like, if you wanted to surprise me with this. OK, you have Shang Chi, You have Kate Bishop. You have them looking for Shang Chi's sister. OK, All right, We got them going. You got missing Chinese immigrants, which in that sense, it doesn't make sense that one of their own would kidnap them, especially for the purposes that we have been told the Hood is trying to use them for. He's trying to create an army, a basically of slaves and it it doesn't make sense.

23:31 So if you want to really surprise me with this story, they could have fought and when the hood was taken off and revealed, it could have been Clint Barton under the hood. That would have surprised the the the shit out of me. It could have been one of the other quote UN quote good guys. It could have, even if since you're bringing in start technology, you've got Simon Birch, you're talking about hammer industry, It could have been one of those characters and I would have been. Like Justin Hammer over Dive Sting, it could have been. No, I. Mean like to me, Obadiah would have Obadiah probably would have made more sense in this as a as a random let's pull him in as the villain then he did in the the the the episode from a couple of. The Red Guardian one.

24:26 Yeah, because once you realize that that's who it is, it's kind of like, Oh yeah, that's predictable because he tried to kill Tony Stark in in the movies. I'm just saying switch it up a little bit. Don't make it so predictable. Like the whole point of what if is that you're taking characters and you're putting them in scenarios that are different from the way that we know them. And I know that there are some things that are going to stay the same with certain characters. Like I don't think we've ever seen Peggy Carter be evil in any of these episodes. You don't, you know, there's certain characters that you kind of have to have that that consistency. But they could have done a little bit different with this and I wouldn't have been mad.

25:09 But it's kind of like it's Jolene. Of course it's Jolene. And then to make her to make her as vengeful against her brother as she was. And we don't realize that she's being possessed by the hood until the end. It's like, so the whole point of you doing this is that you're trying to liberate your people. You're trying to band them together to make this land, this America land, what you were promised. It was supposed to be, you know, you're trying to make it the promised land. Why would you be so gung ho about killing your own brother? If saving your people is that important? Your brother could have said, no, I'm not going to help you do this.

25:56 And you could have been like, OK, we'll just stay out of my way. But no, you go from, oh, if you're not going to join me, I'm going to kill you. There's no in between. What? Cuz she's possessed. She's. But we don't know that she's possessed. We get no. We get no indication how the. Stripes on her face could tell. You could tell by the stripes on her face, could tell you that that something was wrong, that there was something going on with her. Those could have been scars from fighting the hood from. Fighting the hood. No, I, I, I got, I got it right away. I, I OK, I'm just going, I'll just talk it up as I'm just going to disagree with y'all throughout this thing because I got it right away that that she was possessed by it and that she wasn't acting under her own her own devices. I was like, I was like, that's not her. Like why, why would she say that unless she was possessed? That's that's, that's, that's really how I was thinking. It's like she's doing this.

26:50 She says she she would never try to kill her brother unless it was under duress. She was under duress and. We don't know that about her character and this, so why would we think that? Well, she damn she, she damned me, put his ass through the ringer in. But she wasn't trying to kill him then. And we knew what we knew she had a motive for that. She was pissed because he left her. She asked him not to leave and he was like, I'm, I'm leaving. I got to go do this, I'll come back. And then he ghosted her. So she had the motive for that anger, but she wasn't trying to kill him. She was just trying, which is. Understandable, I get that.

27:31 That's fine. But she but she was clearly, her face was Gray and scratched and it's like that's her being possessed. It's like it was she was completely different than she did before. I I have a hard time making that leap of logic on that I just because I just thought it was just scars from the battle with the hood. Right. Because I mean, you can't think that you're going to have that kind of battle with someone who is that fabled in this time and in this part of the world and not walk away with with a few scratches. So yeah, I mean that's. True, but it's like I still think, I still think that she that she, the way she looked and talked showed that she was under control, under some otherworldly control.

28:14 So. And I, I, I feel like that's only because you're familiar with the character, because again, we have no point of reference for this version of the character prior to them fighting. We don't know what her regular voice sounds like. We don't know what her regular behavior is. We don't know what her regular personality is because we've not been introduced to that. All we know is that she came over as a hopeful young lady wanting a better life. She finds out what's going on with this hood person and him taking all her people and she tries to fight for justice.

28:55 Why would we think that she that she's the evil person now? Because that has that that was nothing to do with her MO as far as what happened before she disappeared. I mean, I get what you're saying, and I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm not going to say that we're wrong. We just all looked at it differently. And I just feel like, yeah, I feel like it was kind of influenced by what we already know about the character, you know? I get that. I mean, it's just like, I just don't see that. I just don't, I just don't it. And another thing is, I'll give you that they really the way they set it up, even though it's predictable was kind of weird.

29:37 And it's like you'd like they they could have done a better job of how they set it up. But it's like, I mean, we all knew what was going to happen. So it's like whatever. Yeah, they could have even made John Walker the the hood in this one now would have been like, oh, OK, that's interesting. Like. What may have sito in the Acolyte where he's like he he's like totally in depth in real life and the next thing you know, he's like a Red Hood master. I have not seen the acolyte, so I wouldn't know. Oh damn, sorry, spoiler shit damn, it's fine, my bad. Yeah. But the other thing about this whole thing is the stuff that's happening with Kate Bishop. Because while Shang Shi is out confronting the hood, who he later finds out is his sister, Kate Bishop is being held on this train cart that they have found at with, what's his name, Simon Birch, with Simon Birch's character. And he's apparently, he's apparently, like in control of the muscle for the hood.

30:42 So he has all these soldiers and he has this little device, this little pocket watch that plays the hypnotic tune and it puts Kate kind of in a trance, the same kind of trance that they find the the Chinese immigrants on the train. So when he has her in this trance, he starts monologuing. Of course. Duh. What else are, you know, mustache twirling villains supposed to do? Exactly. That's it. That's that's their whole purpose. You have her under your control for right now. You have her under this trance.

31:22 You don't have her shackled, handcuffed. You don't have her restrained in any other way. And yes, you, you don't have her restrained in any way. And then you are so fucking confident in what you are doing. You decide to tell this person who is fabled across the land for her gun slinging skills and her penchant for justice. You decide to reveal to her that the is not the person who killed her parents. What?

32:02 Not only did he do it because of business, Oh, we enjoyed killing them. What and and Andy, Andy had he had, he had her gun, He said I'm going to kill you with your parents gun. So I'm going to kill. You with your mama's guns. And I say this about villains all the time. I don't know what it is about them that you think that your puny little device or your puny little whatever is restraining this person enough that you can reveal the biggest thing to upset them.

32:44 The the like literally the main reason she is out hunting these western streets for the hood. You reveal that information to her and you think it's not going to do anything to her. Like you think that there's no chance of you. I just I don't understand. I mean why? Why But why would he think that? But why would he think that? Because he has a whole train full of reasons to think that his watch would work. The only the only reason that the spell was broken is because is because what's his name? Kwaijin Pham rang the bell. Ringing the bell is the only thing that snapped her out of it. If he didn't he hadn't rung that bell she would still be under his control. He has a whole train full of Chinese workers that are still under the control of the watch.

33:27 Even though he only he had it in his pocket and didn't bring it out. He brought it out for Kate and put her under and she couldn't move because it's that's how it worked. That's exactly how it's worked for him in the past. Why would he think that it would be different? He didn't expect quite little, little little drunken fist to go over there and start ringing the bell and and like and snapping people out of snapping her out of it. He did not expect that. So why would he have it tied up? He didn't. He wouldn't think he needed it and. I guess that's part of the that's part of the thing because you're, you're the evil person. You know that when, when they walked on this train, there were three of them. Now, granted, you sent your boys, you sent two of your hench men to go kill the little boy. Nope.

34:08 That's the. Watchers fault and I understand that, but here's my thing as the person who is leading all of these people, you sent two men to go kill a little boy and your two men haven't come back yet and nothing about that concerned you. No, because they were Lally gagging. They did what they're supposed to do and they're chilling. Yes, I'm with Mike on this one. I mean, he he he how how was sunny? How was sunny Birch? Expect expect a expect a big headed. Big headed extraterrestrial to knock his men off the train and save the boy. He played much. About the Watcher, You don't know who else they had with you. You don't know what this boy is capable of. You as a villain, you are supposed to have your sights on everything.

34:59 If you know you have one enemy out here, you have another one sitting here. There is another variable that you have not accounted for. Yes, you sent your men to go kill him. Your men have not come back. And I'm sorry, Anthony, every, every, every, every movie, TV show that we have seen with villains and villain bosses and hench men. Hench men don't do lollygagging. They don't do what they want to do on a whim, No, you go do what the boss tells you to do and you come back just in case the boss needs you to do something else. I am not buying, no.

35:40 I don't know, I, I, I've seen, I've seen playing movies where where the Hinchman and Lily gag. I think it was one, I think it was Once Upon a time in Mexico where they were told to torture someone and one of the Hinchman after the boss was like, yeah, Nah, I'm not in the that torture thing. And they didn't talk to the guy. So it happens. I mean, I'm with Mike on this one and and up until this point, Sunny has had no reason to think that every that anything he does isn't working out to his benefit. He has. Not had to go up against him like Shang Shi and Kate Bishop. Maybe he has. They got to start technology, so apparently they do.

36:24 He has succeeded at everything he's done. Basically, how does he have, there's no no chance he he can get Stark tech without a fight. You knew Tony Stark put up a fight. But yeah, he's then still, he has Stark tech and it's like Chongqi's over there fighting with the Red Hood. He doesn't have any idea. He's not out there counting. He's not in there counting hench men like 123. OK, I only have 18 hench men. Where are those two guys that took that little boy to throw him off the train? You know, just talk about that. He has Kate, he has Kate Bishop in front of her, in front of him. And he's like, and he has his, his her mom's gun on his side. And he's like, oh, I'm about to, I'm about to crash her. Let me go ahead and click and turn this on. So she said, I can, I can monologue for her and let her know what's up.

37:05 Because it's like he doesn't care. Sunny Birch is not the level of bad guy to to really cover his tracks that well, you know that he wasn't that he wasn't in love with that guy and Ant Man and the Wasp. He was a terrible he. Was. Terrible. He was terrible. He's probably. Why I don't remember him? Exactly. He's not the he's not the type of villain that that covers his tracks like that. He. I mean, and, and for example, for example, over Dietstein have the same technology in the Iron Man movie and he used it on Tony and instead of just going ahead and killing Tony, he takes the finger out and tell Tony exactly what he's going to do, you know, and reveals himself to be the bad guy. And then turned around and got his ass handed to him because. Exactly because.

37:53 Because. He was. Hoping, yeah, he's over there hoping that he'd die. I'm like, you can't hope that you that's. The point I'm trying to make with Sonny Burke like. He's not that level of bad guy. That's. What I'm trying to right, but the difference is if you going to. Kill them. Just kill them because because if you don't, you're giving them a chance to come back and do their. Right. But the difference is Obadiah has been failing at what he's trying to do, right? So he has expectation of failure. He is saying he's not failed at everything. He's succeeded at every step of the way. I guess I just, he had no reason to think that the two hench men would get knocked off by and watch it.

38:37 Like, why would he? Why would that even be something that he would consider as a possibility? They could have taken the time coming back. He didn't say go kill him and come back. He didn't say go take care of the kid. He didn't tell him to come back. It's just for me with with evil people and granted, I don't mind the lapse of judgement because this means that eventually our heroes will prevail. So I'm not mad about that. But if I'm looking at it from their point of view, stop talking so God damn much and just handle your business. If you going to kill Kate Bishop, you ain't got to tell her all this information. Just kill her and be done with it and and go on to the day that I know that that's just and I'm sorry it's a thing.

39:21 It the incredible spoiled me when syndrome it says no monologuing and and it's like ever since then when a villain starts monologuing in in a movie or ATV show, that's literally what comes to my mind. Oh, you're monologuing. I'm. On logging and no capes things, things people should learn from the incredibles. I'm just saying he didn't he didn't, but he like like Anthony said he he he had he had everything in control. He's like, he probably didn't give a fuck. He was like like, fuck this ain't nobody gonna spoil this for me like screwed all that I got. I got a train full of Chinese workers under my control. I have Kate Bishop right here who can't do shit any do shit about anything I'm getting ready to do right now.

40:05 It's like not a damn thing can do it and. And of course, it's like the he he he didn't expect like little, he didn't expect Kwaijun to be to be there. He didn't expect him to be saved. But I mean, though, that's like something that he had no idea that's an even process for him. It's like, like, why? Like, like apparently, apparently because they, they didn't come. He was like, if something would have happened, they would have come back and said the kid escaped or they would have been looking for the kid or been like said, or they would have come back and said it. But since they didn't come back, he was like, oh, they must have done it. And maybe they're having an existential crisis about killing a kid. You know, maybe, maybe they're back there crying and crying into a beer. Like, I can't believe I killed the child. He's like, it's OK, it's OK, we'll get over it. But it's like, maybe that's what happened. He didn't, he didn't know.

40:52 He didn't care because they didn't come back and say something that happened. Some went wrong because he didn't expect him to. So there we go. I guess, I guess. But OK, so let's talk. Let's talk about this, this task of the two hench men trying to kill the little boy and the Watcher stepping in. Because I would say this when the Watcher was giving his dialogue and he was talking about how heroes come in all sizes, but sometimes, what did he say? Sometimes things don't go as planned or whatever and you get to the point where it looks like the henchman is about to kill this kid. My first thought was I said a while too, if you don't step your ass in and help this little boy when you've been sticking your nose in all this other business, I would be really pissed.

41:40 And then of course, he actually does step in. He thumps the two hench men off the train so that the little boy can continue to do what he's doing. And I was just sitting there like, OK, he's going to get in trouble for that because the watchers of the Watcher have already been looking at him. And sure enough, at the end of this episode, he's giving his little his little summary speech. And what did he what did he say? He said another, I think something about another story, another wind or something like that. And and the eminence comes in and he was like, yeah, because of your interference. And we have decided that this cannot go on. And they kind of push him through his plane of existence into wherever they're pushing him to. And I was like, oh.

42:36 OK, all I can see is Bill Duke sitting at the table seeing you know you don't fucked. Up right. I mean, it's like I I get it. I mean, his heart's in a good place, but it's like this has been leading up to him getting in trouble all three seasons have been leading up to him to this shit happening. It's like he he he interfered with Doctor Strange, he and pretty much gave Peggy Carter unlimited access to whatever he whatever he was doing. And it's like the watch that's like the other watchers are probably like, what the fuck are you doing, dog? That's fucking human. Like that's immortal. Why are you showing mortals around our shit? It's like, yeah, it's basically like, it's, it's like, it's like somebody I equated to like someone a periphery, periphery member of a rap group bringing the girl around to the studio and they're like, who the fuck is this?

43:26 He's like, no, no, no, she's cool, she's cool. And they're like, why are you showing her all that shit? And it's like, I just, I just, I knew from last season, I was like, he should have been for all that he was doing, Kate, Kate Bishop back then, he should have, he should have been. In. Trouble for that, Yeah. For Pig, for Kate, Captain Carter, for Peggy, all that shit. He should have been in trouble, like from that. Like, like they've been having full blown conversations about what the fuck is happening. I'm like, like, yeah, that you should have happened then for me. Well, he's, he's. I don't even know what to say. You'd have one job, dude. He had one job. One job.

44:07 Right, which was to not interfere. The one the one rule you had. Watch and don't be seen. Watch and don't interfere. Because I would say this too, the way that they did the angles when the little boy was on the train and the guy was about to kill him, he looked over to the side like he saw Oatu. And the way that they had it, they they had Oatu in the frame over the guy's shoulder. I was like, so does this little boy see this cosmic being right now, right before Oatu kind of thumped them off? Because I feel like he did if he did.

44:48 He would have freaked out. Or he just would have been. He would just had a blank look like who the fuck the fuck. Yeah, and then he turns back and looks and and doesn't see him again. He's probably like, oh, maybe I just imagine that. I mean he was like seconds away from getting killed so ain't no telling what is mine would have. I don't think he saw him. I think he just, he, he was like, oh, I'm about to die. And then he's like, oh, I didn't die. That was strange. That's what it looked like. I don't. I don't think he saw or want to. OK. Or the Watcher, because I don't even know if we know his name yet. Yeah, they revealed his name the. Last episode.

45:29 I want to say it was in the the end of the first season, he told, I think he told Peggy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's where a lot. Who is in trouble now? That's an understatement. Right, so I. About to get done up. So The thing is, we only have two, two episodes left in this season. Well, not even just the season, we have two episodes left in this series. So I'm thinking both of those episodes, just going by what the titles have been, I'm thinking both of those episodes are going to be dealing with him and his. Yeah.

46:11 Yeah, because because you saw, you saw when they when they bumped it, when they hit his head into his, his domain, like those 3 shards went through space. So they could, they have to land somewhere. So I guess they're probably, they're probably going to land somewhere where, where there are people that can help him. I'm assuming because there's no other reason for them to, to focus on those 3 shards floating through space. So they have to figure in some way. So that means Peggy Carter I I feel like she has to come back at some point because we have seen her. I don't think we've seen her in this season so far, but she's the only person who really knows that he exists aside from Black Widow so. Strange Supreme.

46:51 Oh, and Strange Supreme. Yeah. However he exists. I mean, because he he basically destroyed himself in the last last season's finale. Yes, I don't think we'll see him, but I I would expect to see at least Peggy, especially since she's been a prominent character in the previous two seasons. Maybe they were saving her for something big, like saving the Watcher. Yeah, I mean she, she basically started this whole thing, so she has to be be it be factored into the ending of it too, so. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see like what kind of power they have over him. And, and just like, how do you how do you punish something like that?

47:35 How do you punish a being like that? I mean I I get you can probably just blast them out of existence, but that. Take them out. I I don't know if I would say that seems too easy. Well, no, I mean, you know, they, they have, they have to, they have to have a trial where where they like, they're like you did this, you did that and you, you, you violated, violated the rules of the watchers. You were supposed to watch and not interfere, yet you have interfered constantly. So it's. Like they have to go ahead and do all that shit and get it out of the way. Well, they, they, they're probably more powerful than him because they actually have titles, right?

48:15 And they he was granted his authority so that the authority can be taken away. Yeah, I mean, it's like we we saw that that Watsu is powerful but not overly powerful because Ultron was, Ultron was bashing him around pretty good, like Infinity Ultron was bashing him around pretty good. So he is powerful, but he's not really he's not all powerful. Like someone who can be like, you know, handled like that. Yo, before we go shout out like fucking Kate Bishop, like being a being the fucking gunslinger to end all gunslingers like that, that opening scene where she's just like pop pop, pop, pop pop. Then like catching other people's guns out of the air and shooting them too. I was like, you know how like cuz all guns don't shoot alike.

48:58 So she had to she literally got that. It was still capping motherfuckers like around just like grabbing that and like shooting people behind the back. And I was just like, like, the whole time I was just like hurting. Like. They really did a good job showcasing her gun skills. I liked her. I appreciated that. Yeah. I appreciated it so because, you know, I was kind of, I was kind of so so with her in the Hawkeye series up toward up until towards the end. And I was like, OK, yeah, it's not that bad. But this? I always like it, but I still get used to it. I also get used to it because because she's going to be leading the Young Avengers. So just go ahead and get used to seeing. Yeah, I mean, I'm not worried about it now because like I said, she grew on me towards the end of Hawkeye, so it it's fine.

49:44 But yeah, I I loved her gunslinging. I love the partnership between her and Shawn. She because it's like when you think about those two characters, they're kind of so far on opposite spectrums, but to put them together and to see him using his martial arts, her using her gunslinging and it just it worked. I loved it. So yeah, also I can get used to a cowboy drawing. Shang Shi. I like, I don't know, something about the the cowboy and the and the the draw was yes, I I liked it and I actually posted on Twitter and I was like, I could get used to a Southern speaking cowboy, Shang Shi. And similarly you liked it.

50:35 So we're besties now. We're. Down. I just wanted to say shout out to AWATU in the beginning of this episode. Like, you know, in the far fringes of the multiverse things can get a little weird. You know, less with if and more what the hell. Yeah, that was. Funny, you know, our only problem was programmed to sing show tunes. I mean, literally, literally, that's what you think of when you think about the infinite possibilities. Just there's some universes where shit is just stupid and we kind of get a a piece of that in the Multiverse of Madness when they're falling through spoiler falling through the different multiverses and they're all different in the strange, you know, and weird.

51:31 So it's kind of cool. It was kind of cool. That was funny, yeah, but I was trying to figure out who, because when he was talking about the infinite possibilities and the different, the different universes, they were showing sets of characters. There was like 2 sets of characters that they showed before they showed Ultron as the theater performer and I couldn't figure out who those characters were supposed to be. There's a part one I'm not sure. Yes, that's the one. I was looking. I was like, who are those people? But I guess it doesn't matter unless those particular characters. 'Cause they showed, they showed throg and and Gator. Logan yes, that's what it was, Throg. And it looks like Alligator Loki. It kind of looks like looks like Black Widow and somebody. OK.

52:25 But I was thinking I was like, maybe they'll put maybe they'll put those in stories too, because I was like, you know, ever since Loki, we've been talking about Throg and Alligator Loki and, you know, just wanting to see something with those characters more than just them kind of appearing. But again, we only have two episodes left. And if we're dealing with a Wachus transgressions, I seriously doubt they're not going to bring any new characters in for that. Like it wouldn't make sense to do that at that point. So I just I I did think that was a a nice little twist. The the Ultron thing threw me though, because I had to pause my TV and laugh because I was like, that is so fucked up, but OK.

53:10 Yeah, that is a true what if moment. What if I don't know what if Ultron was the Phantom of the Opera? That just. That's hilarious. Oh goodness. But yes, I enjoyed this episode thoroughly. I I almost want to say this is probably maybe if not the top episode for this season is probably my top 2 because it was fun because I already love Shawn. She is a character like I said, Kate Bishop. She was one of those that had to grow on me. But I do appreciate her as a character and the fact that they made her, you know, this bad ass gunslinger in this one. I love it because I love seeing TV shows and movies where people are gunslingers and they do all these fancy things with the guns. I love it.

53:59 So I like the fact that we got that with her. Yeah. This was, this was one of those really good one off. Like it didn't have to tie into the bigger what if universe, except for Oahu kind of sticking his nose in. But other than that, it was truly like what Anthony said at the beginning, kind of like one of these anthology type episodes, and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a lot of fun. Again, watching John Walker get punched will never get old. And yeah, I enjoyed it real. Real quick, why June fam? Why June Fan was actually an Iron Fist in 1878?

54:40 Like there's a there's a Iron Fist series about him. So that that's why when they when they showed him doing the different martial arts styles, I was like, oh, they're they're kind of heading to that. So I'm like, OK, so so yeah, he he actually, he exists, but he it was a short run because he got killed. But yeah, it's but yeah, there's a he actually, that pleasure fan fan actually existed as an Iron Fist in the comic universe. OK, true. Awesome. All right, well, two episodes left until we have the series finale. Do you guys have any last thoughts about this episode?

55:21 I, I I really enjoyed this episode is definitely up there as far as one of the best ones. And I do like the the anthology. I like that it's a standalone, Yeah, that doesn't have anything to do with anything else this season. So like I said, a change of perspective makes it a little bit more enjoyable. Yeah, yeah, I like this episode. I thought that shout and shout to them like, I mean, having just mentioning Stark and not showing him as far as like just his tech, having his tech and I throw this the same. This is the second episode that they used used something going over going over a ravine. So they didn't they're obviously not trying to kill anybody off this season.

56:08 I still I'm glad that you Sonny Birch, but I just was what's he gonna say? I like his character is just funny to me because Walt Goggins plays these kind of characters all the time and it's just like to see him just to see him actually kind of in like kind of in control and almost winning was kind of weird. But and it it didn't really take or take away from it. And I love the final scene after she after she was broken from his hold, like just just going around shooting everybody just like in a circle. I mean, again, that was that was I was really impressed by the way they did that and I'm glad that they didn't make them make make Shang Chi and Kate love interest.

56:55 Just this made them partners. I think that I think that actually made it better for me just be just to show them like just have a mutual friendship and like a mutual mission to right wrongs. Yeah. As opposed to that and shout, shout to. I mean, when Kate when Kate shot Xylene, I was I was just like I did. I wasn't expecting her to like, like, bust her up, like really shoot her, shoot her. I was just like, I thought, I thought she OK, you gonna shoot her in the shoulder to stop him? But no, she she, she emptied. She emptied the barrel in her. Well, I mean, Charlene was about to kill her brother, and at that point, Kate didn't know that Charlene was. Yeah. So. Yeah, that was messed up.

57:35 I mean, I felt bad for cuz at least she felt bad for it. Like she she was like and Chung Chung, she understood that he's like, no, the hood did. And I'm like, like, if you understood that the hood was the hood was the thing that was wrong with it with her, why didn't you grab? It was like the hood all of a sudden just floats up and is like like doctor strangers hood just going around trying to find someone else. I don't think he knew either until she had been shot because at that point when Kate shot her, the hood came off and when he had her in his arms and she turned around, her voice was different. Her, you know, she was like brother. But I think that's when he real realize what it was.

58:17 I don't think he knew that before. Yeah, so I mean, then yeah, shout, shout, shout to the hood, going off, going off on a different adventure, trying, trying to trying to fuck shit up. Like, cool, whatever. Yeah, OK. Be able to go. It was a good episode. All right. Well, I think that's the first time this this season that we have all agreed that we enjoy the episode or that we had the same opinion about one of these episodes. Yeah, I wish Anthony would have, would have. I wish Anthony would have had his epiphany before the Howard the Duck episode that. I wouldn't quite call it an epiphany, it's just a change of perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.

59:02 Yay, we all agreed on an episode and I think that's a positive enough note to say that is it for our show. You can find us online at www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media on all the social media at Phantom Hybrid. You can chat with us on our Discord channel. You can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. We hope you join the conversation next.

59:54 Music.